Communication chasm: treated v untreated interpersonal dynamics

[jaccat]

I've been on both sides of this. I've been so wrapped up in my own problems that I was hurting my friends, and I've had to detatch from people I care about because I can't stand by anymore and watch them self-destruct.

You're probably right about your therapy enabling you to identify the problems here, but it's not going to mean anything to her unless she wants to change. I don't know a huge amount about her illness, but I do know that it's the kind of thing that can push people over into that place where they can really hurt themselves. You can tell her that, but if she doesn't want to hear it she won't. There's not much you can do about that, and that more than sucks.

Stepping back sounds wise. Doesn't mean you're abandoning her.

 

[scout86]

I honestly can't tell if she's so depressed that she really feels this way or if she's looking for me to tell her how valuable she is.

Maybe both? Thinking about what you've said, about all she's been through, I can sure see being depressed. And wondering if she can survive this, and wondering whether or not it's worth it, and, maybe, even if she's just going to be a burden to her family & the world with the version of life that's apparently ahead if her. And, letting the disease win, that IS a more socially acceptable liking 'ticket out of here' than plan old suicide. Also, life insurance typically doesn't pay out for suicide.

There ARE people out there who are emotional vampires. Maybe she is one, but you should use her while lifetime to evaluate that. At the same time, you can only do what you can do. Which, I guess, brings us back to your original question. Maybe there are ideas to be found in the supporters' section. This sounds like a problem they'd be talking about.

 

[Kintsugi]

You've done such a lot of work on yourself and have great capacity for reflection - she isn't there and may never get there

you should sit down and ask yourself what is it about her that I want to be friends with

The two things above sort of go together. I have told her and her husband many times that a huge part of the reason I respect and care for them so deeply is because they have the self-awareness necessary to examine their lives and make conscious adjustments to improve what they don't like about themselves. I've stressed how important I feel personal accountability is and how choice may not always drive circumstance but dictates how we respond to those circumstances. The worst habit she normally does is to stuff her emotions, which I call her out on when I see it, and sometimes she ignores me, but at least she will admit she's doing it. This... is just like a whole new thing and I hate hate hate it.

Stepping back sounds wise. Doesn't mean you're abandoning her.

You might've hit the nail on the head for why her reactivity has caused me so much hurt. She accused me of abandoning her, and I would never do that. I've often worried myself silly that she would abandon me for isolating, and she never has. She's been an immeasurably steadfast friend to me. I told my T that I thought she was the only secure attachment I'd ever formed, and my T seemed to wholly agree. I wouldn't dream of rejecting who she is or leaving her when she needs me. I just can't witness this multiple times a week and hear her complain about the shit she could be fixing.

Maybe there are ideas to be found in the supporters' section. This sounds like a problem they'd be talking about.

That^ is another reason I wanted this in the treatment section--neutral territory and all. However, I don't know how common it is for supporters to have been through therapy while their sufferer has not, and I felt that was sort of the missing puzzle piece in this communication breakdown. I've heard from various sources that when one person is in therapy in a relationship and the other is not, the relationship suffers or ends because one party is growing and learning new patterns and the other is standing still.

 

[Deleted member 12723]

I told my T that I thought she was the only secure attachment I'd ever formed, and my T seemed to wholly agree. I wouldn't dream of rejecting who she is or leaving her when she needs me. I just can't witness this multiple times a week and hear her complain about the shit she could be fixing.

Thank you for saying this. I understand more now. I think you will find a way to communicate to her this as well. I am so glad to know that they do work on themselves and take ownership of their own choices. I guess I did not understand about this before. I think it is worth to fight for when you are ready. I wish you the best.:hug:

 

[Tinyflame]

Not sure if this is useful @Simply Simon , as I just can't process all the posts atm, so maybe it's been said, but could it have an element of denial (fear) on her part (which is not intentional)?

And if it is para-suicidal- and I think the life insurance factor might feel like a big one for her, is it possible to point out gently that she would make plenty of income if living, and there is no guarantee her child would have a parent if something happened to her H (who would surely feel like she abandoned him)?

If the Dr said september appointment, september it is. The truth is, none of us know if we will be here today, or tomorrow. Even very ill it's shocking too how it is not so easy to die. Deterioraating may force her to take her own action; better in advance as a stroke, heart attack or blindness one survives (without suicide) isn't going to make life easier.

She may be more afraid of living.

If you hve history, and do love her, go gently. But put your needs and self first. The sad truth is none of us can choose healthier options for each other, but then how often do we also not choose for ourselves, either. I think though, we can all know to choose that we can never know the depth and breadth of suffering, or will, or love, or limitations. I think her use of valium shows she's not finding it easy to deny either. It would help her thinking if she cuts back, but again she has to choose it herself. It seems to me she's been very lucky to have such a friend in you, to tell her the truth also. Also, similarly she should care for your well-being.

Hugs to you, xox.

 

[Justmehere]

But of course it isn't really about me being a shitty friend. It's about that kind of desperate flailing people adopt when they're scared shitless that someone is rejecting/abandoning them. But how the f*ck do you explain that to someone who is so emotionally reactive?

It is pretty much impossible to logically talk someone out of this place.

Non-violent communication techniques might help here. They can be used to help someone who is angry and emotionally reactive calm down. It's a way to kind of get at the heart and emotion. It doesn't work or apply to some situations though.

When it comes down to it, like the excellent anology @Suzetig gave, it's like being a lifeguard. Make sure you have your own personal flotation device with you and don't jump in and drown with her because then there will be two victims not just one. Provide what steady safe presence you can, and hold the boundaries you need to not drown with her.

where's the CBT workbook sheet on this shit? How do you get through to someone who is just going to keep being reactive? When also you're scared tomorrow will be their last day alive?

She's more than being emotionally reactive, she is beginning to cross into gulit tripping you and emotionally blackmailing you to try to escape her pain. It also seems like this is possibly a worsening of an already established pattern? Is that true?

Being scared tomorrow will be their last day alive - I get that. It ratchets up everything.

So focus on this moment right now. Today.

 

[Tinyflame]

Sorry @Simply Simon I forgot, and just disregard if not useful, as everyone has great points, but how do you break through? For me, in arguments with loved ones, with children acting out, with biting/ defensive dogs, with people paranoid or losing their cognitive abilities, I do the opposite: I give love and sometimes- mostly- their screen or rage drops. (Not to be mistaken for a punching bag, however). Strange as it sounds. (Ps, at 26 I did what you do too; by 48 I choose the above. Paradoxically, it's less logical but has been more effective, the 1st never was (for my part), guilt-tripping in reverse, though never intended.. Maybe because one person is 'speaking' emotionally, the other intelectually. The one thing you know for certain, there is a reason she's choosing the current one. )

:hug:

 

[Kintsugi]

This thread has been a life raft for me. Tomorrow is her son's surprise birthday party. I was supposed to play a critical role in the party, so I feel really overwhelmed by us not talking today, and this thread is just stuffed with really good insight and support for me to turn to. Thank you.

could it have an element of denial (fear) on her part (which is not intentional)?

To be perfectly frank, when the attention isn't actively focused on her health (or marriage or money) problems, she will repeatedly say how terrible she feels and how terrible everyone says she looks and how bad it is. Then, when I start expressing any real concern or pushing her to be more proactive, it all changes to "I'm fine. I'll be okay" etc. I really think she wants to feel pitied and cared about without facing any personal responsibility or acknowledging exactly how bad it really is.

Like, she super f*cked up her hand and wrist several months ago, so her coworkers and kid and husband(ish) and I all tried to do things for her all the time because she was impaired and in a lot of pain. I think that's where she wants to be. It was a sweet spot of being babied without really being in a position of escalating danger. The biggest concern was that because she chose not to be casted that the bones and ligaments wouldn't heal properly and her job as a nurse (did I f*cking mention she's a goddamn nurse???) would be in jeopardy.

This is why I think all this bullshit between us has more to do with the therapy gap than just an average friendship squabble. I think this is beyond miscommunication. This is a complete breakdown of being able to see one another's point of view. Friday is right: I am used to walking toward scary stuff and picking it up and examining it and working with it. BFF is not used to that. BFF might talk something out from way back in the past with me (like her childhood trauma), but usually in the heat of an emotional moment, her greatest coping mechanism is to stuff it until she can address it later, from the safety of retrospect. I even have a policy for that habit. I wait two weeks before pushing her to look at something scary in her life. It takes at least that long for her to regain rationale about personal problems.

Anyway, so yes, I think denial does play a part here. It's very fluid though. Sometimes she's like, "No really I'ma die and I'm scared" and then if you follow through with her on that line of thinking it's back to "I'll be okay."

And if it is para-suicidal- and I think the life insurance factor might feel like a big one for her, is it possible to point out gently that she would make plenty of income if living, and there is no guarantee her child would have a parent if something happened to her H (who would surely feel like she abandoned him)?

She makes waaaay more money than he ever has and he is totally unreliable as a provider. Great father. Bad bread winner. And I've said this to her. I've also told her point blank that I think he would kill himself if she died, and that is really what I think. He's diagnosed bipolar, but I feel really strongly that he has untreated PTSD paired with a super insecure attachment pattern.

She has asked me numerous times this summer if I would be their son's legal guardian. No shit. See? That's f*cking unfair to do to me. Of course I would. He's like a nephew to me. But damn that is a shitty thing to keep asking me when I'm trying to save you.

If the Dr said september appointment, september it is.

Except it did not have to be. I found her an endo who could have seen her the first week in August. Her stupid f*cking doctor also told her it didn't matter what she ate. And her stupid f*cking doctor saw BFF MANY times over MONTHS for unexplained weight loss (we're talking up to a pound a day) and never checked her f*cking sugars or her A1C! Even though BFF had a history of unexplained severe spikes in blood sugar! So F*CK her doctor. This is why I felt compelled to be aggressive about helping her before I realized I was just being brushed off.

She may be more afraid of living

I think you're really onto something, here. I mean, her entire life has been a complete shit show that never seems to cease.

we can never know the depth and breadth of suffering, or will, or love, or limitations

This is really beautiful and true.

She's more than being emotionally reactive, she is beginning to cross into gulit tripping you and emotionally blackmailing you to try to escape her pain. It also seems like this is possibly a worsening of an already established pattern? Is that true?

Mmmm... I refer to this as her holding me emotionally hostage, and yes, that is a consistent pattern. Guilt tripping for sure. That's why I couldn't let her just stop by for a "cigarette." I know how that goes. She will guilt me out of my time. I can't always let her. I just had to say no. But that was unacceptable to her. And she threw an extremely hurtful fit. Extremely hurtful. She even involved my mental health and therapy. It was so painful.

I do the opposite: I give love and sometimes- mostly- their screen or rage drops.

I have taken this position. The reason we fought was because I explained why she might feel like I'm not around as much as I could be (because I don't have the emotional stamina), and she freaked out and started spitting venom. I really wasn't being aggressive. I was just telling her the truth: I can't expose myself to you all the time when you are killing yourself via inaction. But I've never beaten her over the head with my fears or feelings, because it's her choice. It's just also my choice to limit my own exposure. But now she doesn't want anything to do with me, and I don't get it. I don't understand why she can't accept my choice to be alone sometimes and why she freaked out so badly. Hence why I keep thinking this is about me being in a totally different place thanks to treatment. We're not connecting at all about this.

 

[joeylittle]

Sounds like a massively difficult situation. Reading the thread, there's only one thing that I noticed as a bit of a theme.

There's a space between wanting to be babied/coddled and wanting to go out and attack the problem...and it's that thing called validation. Validation is hugely, hugely important in therapy. And also in crisis situations in general. I'm getting that you think she is wanting to be coddled or looked after, wants pity - and bear in mind, I don't know this person - but what it sounds to me like, is she is looking for validation. Not the solutions to the problems - just recognition that she is being heard, and that you can find empathy with whatever situation she's talking about.

Letting people just spill out their stuff, and listening, has value. Letting there be silence has value, too. Questions have immense value as well.
I remember really clearly, from a PHP I was in once, realizing that it was kind of a bummer that the person who was struggling the most - ie, was the person in the emergency therapy situation - was the person who was going to come out of it better equipped to do the heavy lifting in any interpersonal situation. Which is ironic, because it's often the person who needed all that therapy, who needs everyone else around them to be good at carrying their own weight. I'm not really expressing this right, it's just my understanding of how yes, definitely - the more time you've spent on your own mental health, the more you know about how it works.

Right now, I think that you and friend could use a couple of chats. One, where you actually need to be able to tell her how you feel, and she needs to hear it. She doesn't need to try and fix you, but it's important that she hear how much you are hurting, for her. And one where you let her say all the things she needs to say, and you don't actually try and combat any of her distorted thinking, or fatalism, or passivity...just let her talk. Ask questions. Maybe, ask her what you can do to help. She might not have really thought about that one. She might not know, but it's always worth an ask, instead of taking on tasks that may or may not be what is really needed right then and there.

Anyway, I dunno if any of that is useful. Thinking about you - this really does sound gut-wrenching. I do believe that you and she can come out the other side of this. Medical crises are the sorts of events that put friendships through a bit of a wringer, but if both players stay in the game, things are stronger on the other side, yanno?

 

[Sideways]

I get what you're saying @joeylittle , and certainly being able to just sit with her while she unloads where she's at would be an incredibly supportive thing to do for a friend in crisis.

I do worry abiut the potential toll that would take though, and whether it may be asking too much. This is given she seems to offload, but when she does, it sometimes comes out as "This is my problem and it's your fault, you're a shitty friend"; coupled with, it's reached the point where @Simply Simon seems to be saying "If this illness ends up taking her life, I may end up taking my own life".

We all have our limits. We are only human. Supporting a loved one through their time of need is incredibly noble, but not if it's going to cost you your life.

 

[joeylittle]

We all have our limits. We are only human. Supporting a loved one through their time of need is incredibly noble, but not if it's going to cost you your life.

I agree completely.

The bit I left off is, "occasionally". I think some validation of her friend might help in getting @Simply Simon and friend to then be able to get more honest with each other about wants and needs - -on both sides, not just friend - and that would, in turn, create a new template for the relationship. I don't think a friend should be a therapist, and that's what a therapist offers - constant, unqualified, validation. Just that borrowing some therapy tools for an hour or two can help move the relationship to where it needs to be.

 

[The Albatross]

Has anyone even mentioned the big D??? Depression? Depressive cycling had worn out some of my friends, and it is the number one reason I trend to ditch out of peer/support relationships now. However much I want to be there and listen... it is incredibly frustrating for me to see somebody I care about stuck or worse, actualizing the consequences of that by in-effectivity or the inability to problem solve. Months turn to years and it is a behavior that is ultimately relationally destructive.

I can't stand by for long when that person seems bound and determined to hit the self destruct button (health-wise, financially, or otherwise) but wants to be distracted, entertained or vent a litany of their pain and distress. I just can't take on over exposure to that stuff and it is a weak area of mine about how to deal with it and maintain the connection. It ends up being more of a relationship based on "woundedness" rather than a friendship that is mutual - dunno though if I think it's just a "therapy gap"... because people without the benefit of therapy can break their own cycles. Often they don't until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of risking initiating change.

Maybe a well timed, well thought out, well aimed - "I care about you so much but your actions and mental state are really becoming problematic for me in our relationship because.... " and then stand back and stop trying to rescue.

I imagine the most frustrating aspect may be her approach to her medical issues? That is one of the most difficult aspects of a friendship, however much we may love and care for them - it is hard to understand why at times people make the decisions they do. We can't distract, love em out of it. At some point hopefully they adjust course and take some life affirming actions... but we just don't have that much influence often times with other people/other lives.