Relationship Can we talk about cognitive distortion?

[Snowflakes]

Keep in mind it's possible for two people to legitimately see things differently. That doesn't make one of them wrong.

I totally agree with you in general. I really enjoy honest debate on most issues. But when my sufferer looks me in the eyes and accuses me of cheating on her with the next door neighbor and deleting my texts to cover my tracks......she is wrong. I do not cheat.

Her therapist is working at trying to fix that cognitive distortion and her psychiatrist is trying to find the right meds and dosage to help. Both are moderately successful but I have had to, and still do, deal with the fallout.

Not sure if the OP’s issue is similar but the title of her thread would suggest there might be a break from reality.

That said @scout86 please don’t take my rebuttal as being critical. I have learned much from you during my year here and take everything you say to heart :hug:

 

[Hojay]

Thank you @scout86, lots of great communication basics to go back to!

you CAN start by making sure you accurately heard what they said and that you understood it, and make sure they know that they've been accurately heard.

Slow things down. Ask questions to clarify and listen to the answers. By asking questions, you encourage the other person to think with the rational part of their brain.

What I do in those moments is get very calm and try to gather information. (Close to 3 years of training in this have taught me to do this as kindly as possible without being patronizing...phew.) I ask a lot of questions to get a read on what he actually THINKS was said and where his mind is taking him with it so I can adequately address that. Often the conversation ends there already because he's panicking and on his way to flashbacks.

If we do get passed this, I then mirror back what he said to me to make sure I got it right. His response is usually to explain more, validate himself, and get more heated. (Also a possible end to the conversation because he panics.)

If we get passed that, I then try to validate, yet clarify with, "I can understand that XYZ may sound to you that way/made you feel a certain way. Those words were spoken. You did not imagine it. What I hear you saying is that it makes you believe XYZ. This is what I actually meant by that."

90% of the time, it doesn't work. He's off on believing he got it right the first time. The more I explain, the more misunderstood he feels, the more panicked he gets. He believes his "read" on the situation SO MUCH, my attempts at clarifying seem to just sound manipulative to him or like I'm invalidating his emotions--no matter how calmly and reasonably I try to appeal to reason.

So the only other option is to leave the room. Which will cause him to panic even more with the words that he's "all alone in the world" or "nobody ever listens." I think his version of "listening" in those moments is agreeing with and validating what he thinks without question. I just can't do that without selling myself (and reality) out.

 

[scout86]

@Snowflakes , you're right, it's totally possible for someone to be wrong (which is where the "distortion"part comes in.) I've done that with my T number of times. He usually goes with, "That's logical enough, and I can see how you might think that, considering your background, but actually, you're wrong." LOL And then he'll offer an alternative view. He can do it that way because of the nature of the relationship NOW. That's not exactly the way he did it to begin with.

 

[Hojay]

But, is he intending to attack your character?

Well, on bad days in the past, he was. We've come a long way since then and he knows that won't fly with me anymore. So now, no, I don't think he's intending to attack my character, but he's warping things to a degree so that it basically amounts to the same thing.

 

[scout86]

I think his version of "listening" in those moments is agreeing with and validating what he thinks without question

From what you've said about him before, this is a huge big deal for him. (I've got a question for you, but I might not do a great job of asking it, so be prepared to discuss it need be.)

It would probably help to have a specific example to work with but, in what I quoted my T saying in my last post, after he's listened to me, he often says something like, "I can see how you might think that...." And then he gives me his version of why he thinks I might think that. We could have a discussion, right there, about the accuracy of what he said. But what he did there, for ME, was make the point that he's not telling me I'm nuts, or "wrong" (being wrong is an issue with me), or stupid, or anything like that. He has to give my point of view some honest legitimacy before we go on.

So now, no, I don't think he's intending to attack my character, but he's warping things to a degree so that it basically amounts to the same thing

Just my thought on how I might approach this, not saying it would work. Since you've already established that he doesn't want to attack your character, what would happen if, as soon this comes up, you stop and say something like, "You know, that sounds like attack on my character. That's not what you meant to do, is it? What did your actually mean by that?"

 

[Hojay]

(I've got a question for you, but I might not do a great job of asking it, so be prepared to discuss it need be.)

Ask away! Though not sure if I'm addressing your question below already?

It would probably help to have a specific example to work with

Well, I'm a little hesitant. I made the mistake of giving specifics on here before and the discussion derailed into all sorts of opinions on my example, rather than my actual questions. BUT, I know it's always easier with an actual example, so I'll give it another go:

His iphone is set so that the content of a text message doesn't show up on his locked screen. That's fair enough, his choice. I just don't know anybody who set their phone to that function. So I ask him what his reasons are.

Him: Denial. Anger.
Me: But I know it's the case. See, other messaging apps show the content. Text messages don't.
Him: Anger. Denial. Raised voice. I just want to spend all my time with you and not be on my phone, okay?!?!
Me: I'm not sure why you are reacting this harshly. It's a normal, legitimate question.
Him: Panic.
Me: There is nothing to panic about. I'm just interested to know.
Him: I have nothing to hide! I'm with you and only you!
Me: I know, I just want to understand.
Him: I do everything for you! I'm here for you! And STILL you think I'm hiding stuff. Why doesn't anyone ever believe me?! Nothing is enough! Nothing I do is ever enough!
Me: It sounds like you feel like I'm rejecting you. I'm not. It's just a question. But your reaction is making me feel a bit unsure about what's going on.
Him: You are rejecting me! Nothing I do is ever enough!! You still don't understand anything about me! Nobody ever will! PANIC. ANGER. PANIC.

Obviously, trust, secrecy, and transparency ARE an issue for us. But this is NOT what this is about. This is about the cognitive distortions he exhibits in these moments and how I can't seem to find a way to adequately handle them especially when panic attacks happen because of them.

I could have walked away, which he would have interpreted as anger, which would have been even more triggering to him.

What I eventually did was just keep saying that I know he loves me etc. et al. None of which addresses the fact how cognitive distortions derailed the conversation.

But what he did there, for ME, was make the point that he's not telling me I'm nuts, or "wrong" (being wrong is an issue with me), or stupid, or anything like that. He has to give my point of view some honest legitimacy before we go on.

Yes, I'm big on validating and then clarifying :)

"You know, that sounds like attack on my character. That's not what you meant to do, is it? What did your actually mean by that?"

I think, honestly, he would attack me for thinking he's attacking my character :) When I point out what his words feel like, he's very quick to tell me how I'm making him feel even worse or that just misunderstand him and how could I think this has anything to do with me? And he can't explain anymore what happens to him...

...so then I'm sitting there thinking, wait, did I just live in an alternate reality where none of the above was said?

 

[scout86]

When I point out what his words feel like

This might be part of the problem. YOU are entitled to feel any way you want to. (So is he.) "Feelings" really aren't "wrong". They might be inaccurate, misplaced, out of proportion, lots of things, but feelings are what they are. And there's nothing quite as invalidating, in my experience, as being told that either you don't feel what you do, or that your feelings are wrong. Your feelings are real and they are what they are. So, if you FEEL like he's attacking your character, that's true. But what's true is that you feel that way. It may or may not be true that that is what he's doing. That works both ways. So, if he says he feels like you're not listening, either he really feels that way or he's lying about it. He might be wrong about whether or not you're listening, but he's not wrong about his feelings. (Does that make any sense?) And, to deal with the situation, you both have to find a way to deal with each others feelings.

As far as the phone thing goes, my phone is password protected and no one else has the password. The screen will show I have an email or text, but it won't show what the message is. Why? Because I don't want anyone else reading my messages. If I was married..... I'd probably do the same, because I had some unfortunate experiences with my ex-husband and, for me, going forward, I'm not going to prove to people that they can trust me. They either will or they won't, based on my normal behavior. My experience was that the "proving" becomes endless and I could never manage to actually get there. Which actually fed into some childhood stuff about never being good enough, or "right", or ok, or whatever. That's me, I have no idea what your guy's reasons are.

When you ask him his reasons, has he ever actually given you his reasons? (Could be he's afraid to, if that's something that hasn't worked well for him in the past.)

As an example, the last time my T used the "I can see why you might feel that way...." line, we were talking about talking about stuff. I said I thought it was a waste of time, because it doesn't change anything. That's true, that's the way it seems to me. It's also true that I have a rather long history of answering the "tell me how you feel...." question only to be told that I was WRONG, stupid, lying, etc, etc. I learned a long time ago that the best approach is to keep your silly mouth shut and deal with things alone, because trying to do anything else is going to leave you worse off. There is no WAY I'm going to talk about how I feel. If someone asks that question, it's "obviously" a trick. My T knows that, all of it. He'd still like it if I talked about stuff. I get that. He'd also like it if I trusted him, which I kind of do. But, the reason I trust him is he's never, one time, attacked me for anything I've said. He's disagreed with my interpretation of the facts, but never attacked ME. He's been extremely careful about that.

Anyway, he went on to say there's actually fMRI data that proves your brain changes when you talk about stuff. (He knows I'm impressed with objective science.) So we left things at "Ok, maybe there's evidence that it helps, but I'm not going to do it. Yet, anyway."

did I just live in an alternate reality where none of the above was said?

What makes this complicated is THAT is actually one of the options. Because you've got some issues around this stuff too, and for good reason. So I think it's possible that what you're hearing and what he's saying really might NOT be the same thing, just like what you're saying and what he's hearing may be two very different things. You're both going to be inclined to interpret things through the lens of past experiences. (Which is why have someone like a couples therapist, to keep everyone on the same page, can help.)

So, out of curiosity, if I had a SO who asked why my phone is set the way it is, I'd say, "Because I don't want anyone reading my messages." I'm going to guess, if he saw things like you do, he wouldn't like that. Would I be right? What would happen then?

The thing is, I don't think your guy has gone far enough in dealing with all this PTSD stuff that he can step back and be at ALL objective about his own reactions. He's just caught up in the script he's been living for his whole life and doesn't know how to do anything different. The only thing I can think you can do about that is not play by the script he's expecting you to play by. Do something completely different, but something that works for you.

 

[Tinyflame]

@Hojay can you loosen your rein for trust on him? Trust is earned, and maintained, but it needs freedom. Both of you need to afford that for or to each other, and hopefully come thru, for each other.

(Ignore if useless)-
:hug:

 

[Hojay]

Just as a heads up, I'm not going to go too much into the content of the convo I described. I just want to keep the thread on topic and not have it veer off into whether or not my question was legitimate. This is about his cognitive distortions about various topics we talk about, so that's what it's really about. That was just an example :)

So, if he says he feels like you're not listening, either he really feels that way or he's lying about it.

He might be wrong about whether or not you're listening, but he's not wrong about his feelings.

He definitely feels that way! And he's entitled to his feelings. Just as I am entitled to mine, as you describe. Where it becomes sticky though is when his feelings are based on cognitive distortion that has disproportionate consequences for him and us, short and longterm. So while I can validate his reasons for feeling that way, there is a point at which he spins off that I simply can't condone. Everyone is entitled to their feelings is a very useful motto, but it has its limits when it veers into distortion, IMO. For example, the statement "Nothing I do is ever enough!" is black and white thinking and distorted. None of that was said or implied. It's what his mind said or implied. And I have no chance reasoning with or validating phantoms.

So there has got to be some other way...

I'd say, "Because I don't want anyone reading my messages." I'm going to guess, if he saw things like you do, he wouldn't like that. Would I be right? What would happen then?

Nothing would happen. We would have a conversation. That's it. Back and forth. His opinion, mine. Learning. Middle ground. Mutual understanding. Instead, I get cognitive distortion.

The only thing I can think you can do about that is not play by the script he's expecting you to play by. Do something completely different, but something that works for you.

Hm, interesting. I think the script he knows is the more hysterical he gets, the more understanding and apologetic I become. I don't know what going off-script would entail here, hmmm.

You may be very right when you say that he's not far enough in recovery to get a handle on himself here. He is avoiding therapy for (to me) understandable reasons at the moment. And it's not going to get better until he goes at it again proactively. In the meantime, I'm trying to find a way to handle these situations that work for both of us.

 

[scout86]

So while I can validate his reasons for feeling that way,

This is kind of a fine point, but I think it matters. If you think about it, my T validated the FACT that felt as I did, but NOT my reasons for having the feeling. He acknowledged that my feelings were based on real experiences, but PAST experiences. Then he encouraged me to consider the possibility that NOW might be different from THEN. And I'll admit, it might be. (It also might not be. LOL)

I think the script he knows is the more hysterical he gets, the more understanding and apologetic I become.

This is a guess, but I don't think that's what he's thinking. First, the "script" in this case goes back to his childhood. That's probably where he's at, mentally, when you guys are having these situations. I think what he expects to happen is he'll try to explain, it won't be good enough, no one will listen, whoever he's talking to will be angry, and life will be hell. And there's not a thing in the world he can do to change it, he's just stuck.

Now, I'm NOT saying that's rational, or that it's what's actually going on, in your version of reality. Just that I suspect that's something like what's going on for him. I don't think he, in any way, thinks he's "winning" these encounters. He's not getting what he wants at all. And neither are you.

I think I've said this before. My T says we all have our own road map of reality. They are different. Some are more accurate than others and it's good to try to make sure your map is as up to date and accurate as possible. But, no matter what, these are just MAPS, they are not "reality". (He and I debate whether or not there IS a such thing as "reality". LOL)

 

[Hojay]

my T validated the FACT that felt as I did, but NOT my reasons for having the feeling.

Yes, that's what I mean by validating and clarifying :) I can validate that he feels that way, but I can only clarify from that point on. It doesn't go well, most of the time. So that's where I'm a little stuck. Ugh...

I think what he expects to happen is he'll try to explain, it won't be good enough, no one will listen, whoever he's talking to will be angry, and life will be hell. And there's not a thing in the world he can do to change it, he's just stuck.

This is super helpful! And spot on, I assume. He doesn't understand that while he's trying to explain, he's not explaining anything, so in the end, it all becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. And yes, very much his childhood stuff. I'm VERY conscious of validating again and again that I believe what he is saying. That seems to make a little bit of a difference. But it's hit and miss.

My T says we all have our own road map of reality. They are different.

Your T is a wise man :) I agree with this. And I wish I knew more about my partner's road map to reality to be able to handle this more adequately...

 

[scout86]

And I wish I knew more about my partner's road map to reality

That might be something you can ask him about. Maybe not directly....... And, he may not want to talk about specifics of his childhood. But you might be able to explore what he expects from people and what experiences have led him to believe what he believes.

Using myself for an example again. No matter what I've said, or how much he disagrees with me, my T has never once said I was stupid or "wrong" in the same "totally and completely, morally, humanly WRONG" way I was used to hearing it. Instead, he's told me I have some good ideas, that he thinks people should listen to me more. Stuff like that. That completely baffles me, because I've not heard that kind of thing often and I don't AT ALL expect it. He shapes the way I think about myself by pointing out the ways I'm better than I've believed, if that makes any sense.

Your T is a wise man

He is. (I actually tell him that once in awhile. LOL) Another thing he keeps telling me is that all of this stuff was "adaptive" at one time. They may not be outstanding coping mechanisms, but they were the best you could come up with at the time. And the purpose was to keep you alive. That's the thing about PTSD, once you get to where that's what's running the show, it really FEELS like life and death and that's the road map.

IMO. For example, the statement "Nothing I do is ever enough!" is black and white thinking and distorted.

That's probably true now, but there probably was a time, for him, when it wasn't true. Do you have examples of times when something he said or did WAS enough? (You don't have to share them here, but one of the ways to confront that kind of distortion is with examples to the contrary. I guess you have to be careful how you do that. You don't want it to be an attack, you want it to be a question. Like, "Well, what I about the time you did X? Wasn't that enough?"