Relationship Can we talk about cognitive distortion?

[Freida]

.what may also trigger him in those moments is that he feels (though it's not true) that he may have to talk about things he doesn't want to talk about, i.e. his past, abuse, and other things that have happened to him.

that makes perfect sense and he may have no idea it is happening. (LOL as I think about it and admit I might do that without realizing it!)

I can't see how we could be in couples counseling without at least disclosing his disorder (

Put this on him. Simplest would be for him to just say "I have ptsd but we are not going to address that now". Then he has control. And yes - it's going to come up because it is why he reacts like he does. But it can be addressed with what to do in the present rather than where it came from in the past

 

[shimmerz]

Makes total sense! What I run into a lot with my partner is that it's not so much language or tone that gets him, it's the content. So no matter how lovingly and neutrally I say something, he will sift through it until he finds the accusation...which triggers him.

I can see this happening as an avoidance and control tactic (although highly unlikely it is purposeful). If conflict is terrifying to him, then chances are good he will do anything humanly possible to stop the impending argument (and this is completely subjective as there may not even BE an impending argument). So he could be sifting through to find an accusation so that he has more control than you do to blame it on you. Perhaps him being blamed for anything at one time was a completely heart and soul crushing experience and he just can't take the cues that he sees (that you don't) without slipping into 'attack first before they kill me' mode.

Speaking of cues.... I am not sure if supporters are actually aware of how freaking subtle the cues may be. For me it wasn't so much about tone or body language -- it was all about the eyes. I could see an annoyed look in someone's eyes for like a nanosecond and be sent to the moon. The other person wouldn't even know they had done it and I was already feeling like and engaging like I was needing to protect myself. For me, that meant passing out. Or running into the cold and dropping into a ditch or whatever the closest place to hide was. So you may not actually realize that you are setting off alarms in his head that he is in tune to like you would never know....

Also, have you thought about writing when you speak about stuff? Like the two of you sitting with a pad and paper and writing words down instead of verbalizing them? It is a totally different state one has to be in when one is writing. It requires cognitive thought. And I am going to say that if he is triggered, chances are good you aren't dealing with a ton of cognitive distortions so much as you are dealing with out and out fear and panic and defensive stuff. And I have to say, based on experience, there is hardly a worse feeling than feeling that one has to defend oneself when you know you are so spun out you can't. You worry about using the wrong words, saying something that will make things worse, not being able to take in perceived accusations --- seriously, there are not words.... honest.
With writing, however, you can:
1. See when he is losing it because he won't be able to write anymore. That could solve the problem you both have of not being able to see when he is simply incapable of proper cognition/verbage etc.
2. Slow down the conversation tremendously, which will help with overwhelm and allow him (and you) to pace yourselves.
3. You can write down something like 'Nobody needs to win' or something to that effect to remind him that the end game is to allow him to express himself only. Nothing else. This may allow him a safety net and also a way of you being able to see how he is doing.
4. It takes away the trigger points that he is most likely used to -- escalating voices, frustration is voices, eyes, body language. It literally changes the whole 'fight scene' that he has been conditioned to react to.
5. Allow you both to be engaged in a solution rather than an argument.
6. Best to have some 'good' conversations via notes as well so that writing doesn't become a trigger. "Wanna go for ice cream?"

Just a couple of thoughts. It is lovely to see people who care so much about their spouses. Gives me faith in humanity, you know?

 

[Tinyflame]

Really like @shimmerz 's post.

 

[Hojay]

that makes perfect sense and he may have no idea it is happening.

True :) I think he doesn't understand how far fetched that fear is (because I really don't push him,) but he does get it to an extent that it let's him accuse me of pushing him to talk about things I didn't push him to talk about. On the other hand, though, these conversations would be a lot easier, clarifying, and useful if I knew exactly where what is coming from. So in that, he's not far off to think it would make more sense to talk about these things. But there are ways to communicate without divulging all the details. I, for one, won't push him for it and I'm a little sick of him implying that I am. Just because our situation would be easier if he DID, doesn't mean I'm pushing him.

Speaking of cues.... I am not sure if supporters are actually aware of how freaking subtle the cues may be.

Yes, I'm sure non-verbal cues play a big part in this. It's just not something I really have control over--what he interprets, that is. In my eyes, if I'm approaching things kindly, choose kind words, and structure things as non-accusatory as I can, my non-verbal cues should match. But with him, it doesn't make a huge difference...

And I am going to say that if he is triggered, chances are good you aren't dealing with a ton of cognitive distortions so much as you are dealing with out and out fear and panic and defensive stuff.

Yeah, it's really really difficult to weed out what is what with him. There seems to be a continuum with "disagreement" being on the left and "panic attack with flashbacks" on the right. The gray zones in between are hard for me to keep apart. When has a disagreement bled into a distortion (or was it based on distortion all along)? When has a distortion bled into panic? When has panic bled into a panic attack? It all looks and sounds like anger to me. E.g. he's been in a state of panic quite a long time before I can spot the tell tale signs. Before it all just reads like confusing, anger-fueled distortion. And before that, it reads like annoyed disagreement. And now I'm supposed to find the right moment to call the conversation off *scratches head*

And I have to say, based on experience, there is hardly a worse feeling than feeling that one has to defend oneself when you know you are so spun out you can't.

this breaks my heart. It goes right into the biggest mistake I've made in our relationship: going at it when he's already said he needs to stop talking. I know I was hurting him with it, and it makes me feel awful. Back then I didn't have the timeline above quite right yet. It all just sounded like distorted, angry, rude, unfair accusations being hurled at me and me thinking I could reason or argue him out of it. He'd break the conversation off and I just stood there thinking, wow, you're actually getting away with talking to me like that. No consequences.

Now I know better. I'm here to figure out just how to spot cognitive distortions in order to break off the conversation at a point where it becomes uncomfortable for ME--long before he's let out all of the above. Because the last thing I want is to give him any sort of ammunition to think I am responsible for his panic attacks, so....

Also, have you thought about writing when you speak about stuff?

It's a great idea! We tried to actually email about conflicts in the past. Really hard subjects, we'd just email about. That is...i'd write an email and he wouldn't be able to reply because he got himself too triggered even writing about it. But this in real life, back-and-forth writing could be a great idea! Thank you!!

 

[scout86]

On the writing idea. My T used to suggest that I only communicate with my mother in writing, is at all possible. He says writing encourages you to use the "higher cognitive functions" of your brain. With my mom, she still threw out a ton of random, mean shit. He was hoping maybe she wouldn't do that as much in writing, and that didn't happen. But, it was easier for me to deal with because I could take time to get over my initial reaction and also run stuff by my T, if need be. It helped ME a lot. Didn't change the relationship much, just kept me from feeling as panicked every time I had to deal with her.

I think he doesn't understand how far fetched that fear is

I'm not sure I'm going to be able to explain this well, but I'd like to call you on that as being pretty judgemental.

The fear seems far fetched to YOU. It doesn't seem that way to him. It may be inaccurate but, to HIM, it's very real. It might help if you could respect that and accept that, not judge it. That would probably make you feel like a safer person to open up with. It's possible to disagree without being judgemental. To me, when I see "he just doesn't understand...." it sounds kind of like........ I don't know, like he's stupid or something because he doesn't see things the way you do? That might not be the way you mean it, but it can sound like that. "Far fetched" also sort of implies his thinking is pretty defective. His thinking is actually based on past experience and survival. It may not be well suited to the present situation........ I don't know. I guess I just wish you could find a way to accept him for who he is right now instead of getting upset because he doesn't think the way you'd like him to think. He might well be frustrated at the way his brain works too. It doesn't help to get judged from the outside too.

 

[Hojay]

Good points on the writing idea @scout86. I have noticed that it helps ME a lot to write things out for him--simply because it's often the only time I get to have a voice without it immediately getting twisted and turned on me. So in that, it's great. Even though he may not "hear" me or reply, it's a tool to speak my own truth.

The fear seems far fetched to YOU. It doesn't seem that way to him. It may be inaccurate but, to HIM, it's very real.

It's possible to disagree without being judgemental.

Oh...I'm not sure how you could infer I'm judging his reality. I understand start to finish where it comes from, and I don't think he's in any way stupid or dense for jumping to that conclusion. He has PTSD, his past was atrocious, this is what happens.

This thread is about cognitive distortions and how to handle a sufferer when their reality aggressively clashes with, well, what's actually happening. Even though I don't judge him for his different reality, my opinion on him having that reality is far from the worst problem here.

Working off this example, it may be accurate to him to feel like he's being pushed to talk. That's his reality and he expresses it loudly and clearly: "why does everyone always have to push me to talk about what happened to me? I'm never talking again! EVERRRRR!" followed by "I'm not angry!! Why do you always think I'm angry!! Nobody ever gets me!! I'm all alone in this world!!")

So even IF I had pushed him to talk (which I don't) it's not a difference of opinion we're working with here (he thinks I'm pushing, I don't,) it's really quite something else (he thinks I'm pushing, even though I'm not, and concludes he will never ever talk about things again because he won't ever be pushed to do something against his will ever again, and he's all alone in the world because I TOO try to push him etc. etc.)

So the problem is rather that I'm being accused of something that isn't happening (pushing him) and threatened with consequences for something that didn't happen (never talking again.) It's about finding ways to spot distortions before they escalate and adequately manage them in a constructive way.

I value your insight a lot @scout86! But I do think it's fair to assume that most supporters on here already have more empathy, understanding, and patience than most people would think reasonable :) If I were the judgemental type, I'd have left him 4 months in...

 

[Freida]

It's about finding ways to spot distortions before they escalate and adequately manage them in a constructive way.

Ok - I'm not totally caffeinated yet this morning but this stuck out to me.... Hopefully I can explain

I had a fabulous ptsd guru who was able to do this ^^^^. I would walk into his office and he would tell me what was going on in my head. It was really kind of freaky but it worked every single time. I would go from full on panic mode to being able to finish out my day. Now -- can I figure out how?

I think it was because we knew that was the purpose of our conversations - to teach me to spot my distortions. Mine come with panic, so I would feel those panic tickles and not try to think about anything else except how to deal with what I was feeling - not thinking. he had a whole list of practical things to do to calm myself back down. We never really talked about what memory was tripping me up - it was more here and now on what to do with how I felt in THAT moment. Things like grab an ice pack and put it on my neck, or repeat a mantra, or counting. Weirdly -that was amazingly effective for redirecting my thoughts.

I think what took the pressure off was there was no conversations about feelings. Just practical coping methods. I'm not sure if that would work for you because I could never tell I was in distortion mode - I just knew I was overwhelmed. He had to pick up that my thoughts were on the moon. But. If you can both agree that this is something to work on when you are in a good place it might help? If he agrees to tell you when he starts to panic then you will know what to look for the next time - be it body language or what he's saying or ....?? It would be tough because he would have to commit to tell you when he's getting wound up --- but if that is the only thing that is going on it could be something???.....

Sorry -- I feel like i'm babbling but I know it worked!

 

[shimmerz]

Oh...I'm not sure how you could infer I'm judging his reality.

I think he doesn't understand how far fetched that fear is (because I really don't push him,)

All of this THEN/NOW stuff I can see as being incredibly confusing to someone who is outside of it. What I can say, however, is that the feeling from the inside is very real feeling. I expect his Window of Tolerance is very small and your expectations for him are beyond what he can give you right now.

Based on what you are putting across here in this posting, I am not so certain that his reactions are going to become more secure when you seem to be standing on principle on what they SHOULD be. Expectations from others to perform 'more normally' - well, that in and of itself is enough (for me anyway) to bring on full blown panic and meltdown.

That may not be the reality of your situation, but it appears to be his. Until this THEN stuff stops bleeding into NOW - I expect this is what he is going to experience each and every time he feels like he is being cornered. And him feeling cornered may not be your intention, but it certainly sounds like that is what he is feeling during these events. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for you.

 

[Freida]

Until this THEN stuff stops bleeding into NOW

Oh yea --- that. heavy sigh. Ok, so I don't usually get full blown flashbacks but I do get that ^^^^ I know where I am and what I'm doing...but at the same time I'm lost. It's really hard to describe. The best I can explain is that my PTSD manifests as two pools of water. One is then. One is now. I always have one foot in each pool and there is a barrier between them. Usually I know which one is "the one." But when i get stressed the pools kind of merge together. So even though I'm talking to you part of my brain isn't sure who you are or where I am and it is freeking terrifying. And because I'm confused I tend to get really defensive. It has nothing to do with the conversation I'm having. It's that I cant figure out where/when I am.

 

[Hojay]

I am not so certain that his reactions are going to become more secure when you seem to be standing on principle on what they SHOULD be.

I get what you're saying here. I'm not expecting him to be some sort of way. I don't judge him or hammer on him to "be better." I get what happens to him. I merely want to figure out how to deal with cognitive distortions when they come on because quite frankly, it's ruining a relationship BOTH of us want.

 

[Buttercup]

I am just now reading about this in The Body Keeps the Score. Do you have this one @Hojay?

 

[Hojay]

I am just now reading about this in The Body Keeps the Score.

I do actually! I put it aside a while back. Which part are you referring to?