What’s the “benefit” of repeatedly re-enacting challenging relationship dynamics?

[EveHarrington]

I really don’t think @Florian was all that far off the mark. He posted about men and women, but if you change it to women and women, much is the same. I am straight. I can flirt like crazy with guys and banter all day long. I KNOW it can be misleading but that doesn’t stop me. (I’m single and harming no one. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it, lol.) I can’t flirt or banter away with females to save my life. When I’m in a relationship I don’t flirt with guys, period. It’s my flirt shut down as I feel that flirting would be disrespectful to my partner and would give the wrong signals to the other person.

So as a female interested in other females, I think that it can give the wrong message to be engaging in flirtatious behavior with females.

IME, once someone crosses the line into sexual interest, going back to being just friends is quite difficult. This is why it’s best to not even go in that direction and not engage flirtation as it could lead down a road of relationship destruction.

I’m not blaming you, I’m not saying anything is your fault. Rather I’m saying what I believe based on past experiences of my own.

 

[barefoot]

I don’t think gender matters either, @EveHarrington
I don’t think there are many areas where I think a gender divide (women are like this, men are like that etc) is that relevant or useful.

When I first read @Florian7051 post, I thought he was saying that flirting with men specifically was dangerous. So, my response to that was to think, it doesn’t matter whether it’s a man or a woman - it’s not that men are uniquely programmed to inevitably make a pass at a flirting woman or something! I’ve just re-read his post and I realise I misread it the first time - he was simply giving me his perspective as a guy.

I actually really wish I’d never mentioned flirting and banter in the first place in my OP.
I included it because I wanted to be honest and upfront about my part in these few adult relationships that went awry and because I thought omitting it would skew the story and that they would then potentially come off looking worse, which I thought would be unfair.

But I feel that the flirting side of things has become quite a distraction on the thread and that isn’t the part that’s going to be of much use to me.

I know flirting can be misleading.
I know it’s not a good idea to flirt with friends.
I know that once sex has entered a platonic relationship (even when it isn’t ultimately acted upon) it’s very difficult - if not impossible - for the platonic relationship to exist as it was before.

I have known all this for a long time and, as a result, changed my behaviour a decade ago and haven’t flirted with friends - or probably anyone actually! - since.

I really appreciate every post that has been made on this thread as they have all helped me to think my situations through. I am finding it all very helpful and will definitely use this thread to help me prep for my next therapy session.

Can I respectfully now ask though - please, no more posts about opinions about flirting.

I’d be very grateful if any further posts can please focus on the title of the thread and on areas around possible trauma re-enactment and possible links between childhood trauma and behaviour in adult relationship dynamics. These are all new areas for me and I’m a bit lost with them, so any insights around those things would be particularly helpful to me.

Thanks :)

 

[grit]

barefoot,
The more I see the comments in this thread, I could not help but ask.
In all fairness, how much are you contributing (knowingly or unknowingly) to these experiences and how much is others?
I think one of the most painful feelings in humans is when we are realize we too hurt others. This is not about blaming or victimhood. You were a child of extreme trauma but now you are adult and is it possible you also maybe hurt these people because they were so sure you were into this just as much?

I am only framing this way because sometimes it is easy to fall into our own head in silos and think we are passive creatures that things happened to...mostly we are not.

If you contributed to a lot, then the buck stops there, it is time you become brave enough to empty you vessel of your childhood. If you truly think this is a case of bad experiences of many people, then it is truly time to inspect where you find these very very similar friends and again take an action to not go there.

You have more power than you are giving yourself credit for.

 

[barefoot]

I feel like I’m going round in circles here and repeating myself because I’m pretty sure I’ve already outlined my take - at the time and now - on these friendships and my contribution to the dynamics.

They were three friendships based on lots of things - shared interests, shared sense of humour, shared friends (including my partner) and lots of other stuff...including a small amount of mutual light flirty/cheeky humorous banter. And a lot of that banter was part of a group banter. This isn’t to give you an excuse for my part by saying “oh, but everyone was being a bit flirty” but I feel like I need to explain that this was not hardcore flirtation where I was giving someone a full come on only to then shockingly turn them down when they made a move on me.

I keep saying in this thread that, yes, I played my part in this - in each case, of course we both clearly both played into the dynamic. Everyone in every relationship co-creates the dynamic of that relationship.

I didn’t ever take their flirty banter to mean that they wanted to pursue anything further with me - because that’s not my understanding of platonic friendship; because we were partnered up with other people so I thought it was a harmless fun chemistry; because I was naive; because I felt safe with them...whatever, whatever because...there were probably lots of reasons why I felt it didn’t mean anything that they were being a bit flirty with me, that were all my thoughts feelings and beliefs and not necessarily theirs.

Yes, even though I was clear on where we stood and what my banter did or didn’t mean, I absolutely may have confused them with the bit of banter and they may well have thought I would be interested in more. I get that and think I’ve already said that.

Once each of them made a move, I was genuinely surprised and then very clear that that wasn’t the case - that I wasn’t up for making our relationship a sexual one. I went to great lengths to explain why (not in any way being negative towards them) and to assure them that they and their friendship really mattered to me. They didn’t seem upset about that - but maybe they were, I don’t know.

I then continued to see each of them for a few months as a friend and from then on there was no more flirting from either of us. Each time I saw them though, they made some kind of move later in the evening, which was totally out of keeping with the tone of how the evening had been so far egs: suddenly talking explicitly and graphically about what they wanted to do to me sexually; following me into a toilet and jamming me against a sink and kissing me while I pushed them off having spent an evening listening to how excited he was about getting engaged to his long term partner and how they were going to start trying for a baby; sticking their hand up my dress and basically trying to finger me at a tube station while we waited for a train; showing me a dick pic of their lover and asking if I would have a threesome with them because they were both up for it and then telling me what she would do to me while she watched me suck his dick. I’m sorry to be crude here but that’s what it became. And that was never, never anything even remotely close to the light flirty banter that we had shared in public before. And it wasn’t how those evenings had been either...until suddenly they were.

Each time, instead of me just accepting that the friendship was probably now unsalvageable, and thinking that, whatever I did with some light banter way before, the way they were now behaving was not ok..I would stand there trying to be kind to them and trying to explain again that it was them as a person, them as a friend that I really wanted. And they would nod and say they were sorry and that it wouldn’t happen again.

I stood there in that tube station for over an hour, apologising to the woman who had just totally shocked me by groping me between my legs in a public station with absolutely no warning that that was remotely on the cards of what she would do...nothing about our evening together had indicated that. We had mainly talked about work and she was encouraging me with a career change I was considering making and she really made me feel good about myself and gave me a confidence boost. And then she did that. And I stood there apologising to her and trying to make our friendship right, desperately trying to make sure that she didn’t feel upset or that she didn’t feel angry with me. We then made our own different journeys home. I cried on the way home because I felt so shocked and so stupid and so horrible. Then I got a text from her, apologising, saying she was sorry because she realised that she had embarrassed herself and not behaved professionally.

And then, after a while, I would go and meet each of them again another time. Hoping this me it would end differently. But it never did.

@grit - I genuinely don’t believe I hurt them but I can’t be sure and am not still in a relationship with them to be able to ask. I believe that they were after a fun, extra-marital snog and fumble. Yes, they may have felt confused or dejected when I rejected their advances, I don’t know. They didn’t appear to be but perhaps they were. But none of them were actually looking to become my partner instead of my friend. I’m pretty sure I didn’t break anyone’s heart here. If anything, me keep telling them no just seemed to make them them more persistent and up the ante next time.

I think I am clear about my part in the flirty banter and I am very clear in my mind that the buck doesn’t stop here with me, ultimately, with some of the things that happened that ultimately did lead to me stepping away from the relationship completely.

Perhaps they were still hanging on to some hope that I’d been flirty before so, even though we then hadn’t been that way together for weeks or months, perhaps they thought it was still worth a shot because maybe I could still be interested? Or perhaps me saying I wasn’t interested in that but then still keep showing up to meet them was confusing to them. It’s confusing to me too - that’s what I’m trying to unpack here!

I still don’t think a bit of light banter months before makes it ok to corner someone in a toilet to kiss them or to grope someone completely out of the blue on a tube platform etc. I think that behaviour isn’t ok and I think that’s on them. But still, my focus was on making sure they were ok and I kept going back time after time with ridiculous hopes that things would improve
and instead, of course, I just got more of the same. That element is really what I’m trying to explore in terms of re-enactment/payoffs etc.

If there is a question around what else I unknowingly contributed in terms of how things ended up as they did, I don’t think I have an answer to what that is. I don’t know.

I don’t feel like I was any kind of passive, powerless victim in these relationships.

 

[grit]

Barefoot.
I am truly sorry you had these experiences with your so called friends. My god it actually sounds sort of covert assault to me but that is just me.

I do not know you personally obviously and it is hard to truly dissect one's experiences without knowing each other. However, this sounds awful. I, personally, would be probably reacting aggressively toward anyone crossing my boundaries this way so this says a lot about your calm demur in hostile situations but still it sounds quite intrusive to me. I also do not want to assume anything about your friends cause I do not know them but it does not change the notion...you were approached certain way, a negative way and ended up apologizing!

All I can say is that sometimes it is so easy to always assume every experience is because of our trauma but something are truly because of the current situation or others.

Take care of yourself.

Even if you are not ready to dissect your past, maybe you are better off dissecting these new experiences further to get to the bottom why you even reacted so politely to them.

PS. even if you flirted until the pigs flew, no one deserved to be touched or aggressively approached like you experienced. No one! that is just as lame excuse as she wore a skirt and walked in a back alley mantra you hear around.

 

[blackemerald1]

@barefoot - have you considered that there might be some unsaid indication by the time periods between the interactions?

There wasn't with me every time but it may have occurred some of the time. I often wonder if I was just too blinded by the concept that people could like me for who I was..until I realised that they didn't.

But with you...was their a gap in terms of time between these people doing those things and you returning to try and mend the relationship? Could this have been a cue for them to think, oh she's changed her mind about me and sex is now on the table because that is what the last interaction was about and that is what ended it. But now she is back so it must be ok

And then...the prelude to them 'assaulting' you again was you being friendly, caring about them, and appearing to them to be interested (because that is why they think you reconnected) until they make their move again...

Btw...I don't think connecting...the way you have described it...is flirty. It is letting down your guard and connecting with people. It seems to be easier to do when one is younger or it did for me. Now simply and only because I was rejected because I would not engage in a sexual relationship.. I don't let my guard down. It is so disappointing. I changed because other people saw something in me (innocence or a wanting to be liked possibly) and it was exploitable in sexual ways. Till I didn't and then I was rejected.

I recall receiving a phone call from a former friend's wife berating me for not (doing what her husband wanted)? As if her giving him permission to sleep with me was the only permission required. I was dejected by this. It seemed I was being treated as a object of gratification and our 'friendship' was them coaxing me along till they thought I would be willing. They were very surprised with my non compliant attitude and I still have feelings of hurt and shame to this day. That is just one incident. So I know what you mean @barefoot

 

[PreciousChild]

I didn't read the whole thread, so sorry if I'm saying something someone already said, and if I am neglecting to address a lot of stuff that was brought up. I wanted to address the original post by offering a few thoughts. After reading and reflecting about the question of traumatic memories and dynamics and their constant recurrence, I believe that such memories/dynamics keep resurfacing as a way of trying to seek resolution. That's why van der Kolk's suggestion to seek what one needs in one's imagination if not in reality is effective, in my opinion. By reimagining one's horrific memories, the body/unconscious finds a satisfying story that can put the unrequited memories to rest.

My ptsd stems from a childhood of abuse, but I was not a victim of sexual assault. Yet, sexuality is still a really thorny issue for me. I think it's because my childhood left without a sense of any inherent value. So I always rooted my sense of values in extrinsic things, like my serving people (that's a BIG issue for me because my parents exploited me for my work endlessly), and my sexual attractiveness which I have a certain amount of. I have had times when I've attributed teacher or friend's interest and attention to me as based on sexual attraction because I couldn't believe that they'd give me their time and attention without wanting something. But I think the sad truth is that there is so much kindness and love in people that I couldn't truly appreciate in my life because of the lens of my own childhood in which I was exploited rather than valued for myself. As I accept myself more and more with my work to heal from my past trauma, I can feel myself seeing my own intrinsic worth more, as well as others, and feel love and compassion without necessarily attributing it to sexuality. But certainly, sexuality is a basic human drive and can probably be interpreted in motivations that are under the surface. But I think when it is constantly at the forefront of one's attributions, it probably is something to reflect further about.

 

[scout86]

This isn’t how I “do” relationships in general.

I am often actually quite guarded and not very deeply connected or attached to people..

Yet, there is also this pattern of keep going back in to this dynamic that I outlined above with some people.

There's so much involved in this topic, I thought I'd go back to the beginning and make sure I understand what "the problem" is. Because I think I got sidetracked on "Why do people act this way?" (like your "friends") and "How is it this keeps happening?" In other words, how is it you keeping ending up with "friends" who don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "no".

So, have you had relationships with people where you COULD joke around without it going down the road you've described?
Have you had relationships where you feel like you can let your guard down that don't take a bad turn?
Have you had any relationships where the other party COULD take "No" for an answer?

Mostly I'm curious about all that. I kind of suspect that you don't give up on these people faster than you do because you're hoping they/you will "get it right" at some point. I'm all for giving people second chances. I'm kind of decided third chances usually aren't a good idea. But, I KNOW it can be tempting to not give up in these situations. I can remember at least once, in dealing with my mother, that my T said, "Yes, and what, exactly, makes you think it's going to turn out differently THIS time?" (Nothing? Wishful thinking? LOL IDK?)

 

[barefoot]

this says a lot about your calm demur in hostile situations

I think it was possibly a combination of shock and a bit of freeze response.
Fight and flight never kick in for me...freeze every time. Not always helpful!

Don’t get me wrong - I wasn’t just smiling away acting like nothing happened and being all lovely with them. I very firmly verbalised that what had just happened wasn’t ok with me and that I didn’t want that in our friendship and that it upset me.

And they would look like they got it and say “all the right things”. And I guess I wanted to believe it.

And then I would move to trying to make sure we (our relationship) were ok...that they weren’t upset or angry or feeling bad...because I felt panicked for some reason that things had gone wrong between us.

Thinking on it now as I write, I think that maybe my desire to reassure and soothe them was actually also/more about trying to reassure/soothe myself?

get to the bottom why you even reacted so politely to them

Yes, I think this is definitely worth exploring. I think maybe it’s a boundary thing...that in these cases, I put the boundary down by saying no and verbalising that very firmly...but when I then tried to smoothe things out and make sure we were ok, that’s maybe when my boundary gets a bit squiffy.

And I think it’s also related to a long held belief that, if something goes wrong in a relationship, it must be something I’ve done wrong. Even with the doctor, even with the teachers...I still easily slip into “I must have been stupid”, “I must have done something wrong”, “I must have misunderstood so it must be nothing” etc. I think this is definitely something for me to take to therapy to explore, because it feels that this is perhaps an important part of why I kept going back.

have you considered that there might be some unsaid indication by the time periods between the interactions?

was their a gap in terms of time between these people doing those things and you returning to try and mend the relationship? Could this have been a cue for them to think, oh she's changed her mind about me and sex is now on the table

I can’t know for sure what they were thinking but I can’t really see it, no.
The timings between meetings were more or less the same that they had always been. And the smoothing things over happened right after each incident - it always felt that we had left things more ok and that our conversation had seemed that we had got to being on the same page.

I don’t really want to getting into trying to guess at this stuff.

I’m trying to reply properly to these kinds of questions because you’ve taken the time and trouble to post, but this isn’t really what this thread is for/about for me.

I’m not really interested in trying to work out what their motives were or their intentions or how they interpreted things or why they kept pushing - I can’t possibly know the answers to those questions and I don’t really want to get sucked into mind reading.

I’m really interested in what the appeal was for me - what drove me to keep going back - and what was the benefit/payoff of me being in this kind of dynamic. That was my reason for posting as I think those areas are the areas I can actually explore and work on in therapy, that will help with my overall progress and healing.

the prelude to them 'assaulting' you again was you being friendly, caring about them, and appearing to them to be interested

Again...I’m going to answer because you’ve asked but this isn’t what it’s about for me and, again, I can only say what I think, because I can’t know what was going through their mind.

I was being friendly and caring and interested in them and what they were saying because we were friends, had been friends for years and that’s how we had always been together.
In friendships, people are friendly, caring and interested in each other.

These are three friendships in my 40+ years of life. It isn’t the norm that these things happen in my friendships. I said earlier that, actually, I have more of a tendency to lose interest and drift out of relationships even though the relationships are fine.

So, there is something about the dynamic between me and these three people, I think - that I think maybe linked to historical dynamics - that I was drawn to and got caught up in. I’m just not sure why yet.

Unless it is as simple as enactment. Maybe that’s all the answer to “why” there is and I’m chasing my tail thinking there must be something else!

It seemed I was being treated as a object of gratification and our 'friendship' was them coaxing me along till they thought I would be willing

That sounds horrible...sorry you got caught up in whatever this couple we’re up to. This stuff can certainly be confusing.

 

[grit]

Barefoot

It is amazing how you are moving so close to allowing these discussions and your memory/experience to sink in. I think very soon you will have your own aha moment and insight ...a moment of extreme clarity that you can no longer deny or ignore, a lightening struck to get it all at once. I think you will arrive that soon alone or with therapy. Please keep thinking about this.

I am saying this because you said, "you were soothing yourself when you thought you were soothing them" That is GREAT!

Because you froze, which is not good and fun, you came out and started to soothe everybody and everything around you cause well freezing is same as if you fought or flew...it is survival feeling. AND then because your soothing get confused and lost in soothing them, they did not register you were soothing them. They could still see or they took it as if YOU ARE SOOTHING YOURSELF. AND that is why they did it again cause they did not feel they did anything wrong.

Does this make sense? Your soothing them was really soothing you...so in essence, they saw it right! but also they did not think they did anything wrong. It was like wowo barefoot, you lost yourself there...go sooth yourself girl...(these are not real conscious thoughts BTW) but their actions sound like that.

And then you did exactly that...because you lost/froze, you wanted to gain your equilibrium back so you started to soothe all over including you and attempting them. the reason your soothing them did not work is like you are petting a lion trying to bite you...the lion is like ooh you are giving me your fingers!!!

These people acted aggressive and inappropriate and you acted toward them with freezing and then soothing yourself out of the freeze. they came back just like that lion cause they were barefoot is gonna give me her fingers again while I bite!

Hope this analogy makes sense. I am known to go overboard but I think your soothing them unconsciously set up the next time they came after you!

You did not react appropriate to aggression. Why? this is obvious and I think personally you can no longer avoid not take this to your therapist and break it down for your own sake.

 

[barefoot]

After reading and reflecting about the question of traumatic memories and dynamics and their constant recurrence, I believe that such memories/dynamics keep resurfacing as a way of trying to seek resolution

Yes, I think I am getting clearer on this...it is making more sense that that’s what I was probably doing.

van der Kolk's suggestion to seek what one needs in one's imagination if not in reality i

By reimagining one's horrific memories, the body/unconscious finds a satisfying story that can put the unrequited memories to rest.

This is interesting and new to me. I’ll look this up, thanks.

But I think the sad truth is that there is so much kindness and love in people that I couldn't truly appreciate in my life because of the lens of my own childhood in which I was exploited rather than valued for myself. As I accept myself more and more with my work to heal from my past trauma, I can feel myself seeing my own intrinsic worth more

Sorry to hear that you had these childhood experiences...and so pleased that you have made such progress with your healing and in being able to develop your sense of self-worth and value.

I think I got sidetracked on "Why do people act this way?" (like your "friends") and "How is it this keeps happening?"

Thank you! Me too!
As I’ve said a few times, I can’t know why they acted as they did and it’s not useful to me to try to speculate on why it kept happening.
So thanks for firmly steering this back on purpose! I’ve been kinda failing to do that myself! :rolleyes:

have you had relationships with people where you COULD joke around without it going down the road you've described?

Yes, absolutely - lots!

Have you had relationships where you feel like you can let your guard down that don't take a bad turn?

Again, yes, lots. Though I am probably more guarded these days.

Have you had any relationships where the other party COULD take "No" for an answer?

I don’t think I have had any other friendships where there has been this kind of pressure for something sexual and me saying no...then more pressure for sex etc

Other friendships have always just been ...friendships! With no sexual passes from either of us even though there has been the odd bit of light banter between us. The parameters were just...safe...an unspoken understanding that we were friends and that friendship doesn’t involve shagging, snogging or groping each other!

In terms of historical/trauma things (which may not be what you mean here anyway) I froze and dissociated. So I was never able to say no, which is something I still struggle with now...

I kind of suspect that you don't give up on these people faster than you do because you're hoping they/you will "get it right" at some point.

Yes, exactly. With other people, if they upset me/don’t treat me well/if I’m not enjoying the relationship, I don’t think I’m too bothered about hanging in there...I’d probably give someone a second chance/one benefit of the doubt but after that - and especially if pressure ramps up - I’d just be out. Which is what makes me wonder why I was so drawn to keep going back to these three people.

Maybe it was because sex was involved - and that made everything feel more confusing/felt harder for me to set down and really hold strong boundaries?

and what, exactly, makes you think it's going to turn out differently THIS time?

Ha! Yes...exactly!

 

[PreciousChild]

This is interesting and new to me. I’ll look this up, thanks.

The directly relevant section is called "Revising the Past" p. 302 in Body Keeps the Score, but I recommend reading the chapter leading up to it, as well as the whole book if you haven't read it already. Understanding what happens during triggers or dissociation is helpful in healing. I've gotten to the point where I almost welcome becoming triggered because that's the most effective time to reconfigure memories and stories that help in healing. As I do so, I'm actually less prone to getting triggered, which is better obviously. But having a strategy helped me to embrace when I got triggered and to do something about it versus simply re-experiencing the awfulness. Hope you find the strategies helpful too, barefoot.