I apologize in advance for the lengthy post. I'm traveling right now, and can only check in on occasion and do everything at once.
@Sophy, I'm on chapter 12 now! It's really good. I had a bunch of stuff I wanted to respond to.
I grew tired of the idea that the codependent person was a victim of the mentally ill person/addict.
I agree with
@Sophy that the book is trying to argue that we should let go, and not blame the addict. Beatte herself is both an addict and codependent. I think she's saying they're kind of the same, but the addict can sedate themselves with chemicals or whatever the addiction is. The codependent doesn't have that kind of relief. There's a point when she talks about the "triangle" of codependency - enabling, persecuting, and playing the victim. She thinks it's a cycle that codependents get into that they need to find a way out of. She also talks about how codependents should probably not confront their loved one with "the truth about who they are" since most of us are not psychologists. We're not trained to put back the pieces together if things fall apart.
I think this ends up being a controlling thing, but I am not certain that the people doing the 'helping' are attempting to control the other - not intentionally anyway. I think the problem is that safety for the codependent is focused externally, In good health for adults, it should be focused inside. Things like what do I need as opposed to what do YOU need.
Leaving this type of behaviour behind is a game changer. I believe that a solid self care routine is the catalyst for it, by and large.
I agree with you,
@shimmerz, but I do think that control is a part of at least some codependents, even if it isn't conscious. I certainly think I am using helping to control the situation though I don't think that's what I'm doing at the time. My parents exploited my help so egregiously, I became depersonalized and suicidal as a teen. For me, helping became my identity because that was what I knew. But I also think that it was the way I began to put a value on myself and also as a way of controlling my destiny. If I helped my parents, I was safe. If I didn't do it right, then I was in trouble! If you translate that kind of behavior of one adult to another, it's completely dysfunctional. I was trying to fix my ex husband who was an addict and I would lose it when my help did not work (which it usually didn't). I think this is controlling though in a different way than a bully. But I 100% agree that the solution is focusing on yourself. Beatte talks about how codependency is about trying to fix other people's feelings and thoughts, solving their problems, generally taking responsibility for them, or suffering the consequences for them. She's really good about showing the reader why none of that is okay. Besides a very rare, rare case, other people do not need us to do this. And they will never be grateful because we can only do these things if we assume that they're incompetent to do what grown-ups need to do for themselves.
Both my parents relied on me and I thought of myself as the helper instead of the child and them as fragile instead of strong parents.
In the course of my life, I've learned to identify when my help is needed or when it is codependent in various relationships.
One that comes to mind was this romantic relationship in which he was unstable and needed a lot of support. The support he needed wasn't the support he wanted though. He wanted it to be said that it was alright, that he could behave in any way he pleased because we all loved him unconditionally.
I did just that, which just fueled him temperament that life owed him unconditional love and he didn't need to be a good person to others. We eventually broke up because I grew tired of it all, but for 10 years I stayed his friend and continued to show him unconditional love and support, because that was (or what I thought it was) my role in his life.
@Sietz, I can so relate to this. I helped my addict ex-husband a dozen years after we were divorced. I could barely move on with my life. I discovered that there were powerful messages from my childhood that kept making me want to enable him - my dad attempted suicide when I was 11 after convincing me for most of childhood that I was responsible for his happiness. My reaction to his suicide attempt at the time was next to nil, as far as I could remember. Only last year did I realize that I've been blaming myself for his almost-death, and I was basically on the look-out for someone like my ex to try to atone for my grievous sin. I couldn't punish myself enough. Often, our codependent behaviors are repititions of our childhood, according to Beatte. I hope you do get the book. It's really helpful.
I agree the "control" thing is a total red-herring and that is not what that whole book is about, I promise!
I think the control thing is only one possible feature of a codependent profile. But part of acknowledging codependency, I think, is to stop playing the victim. Yes, it might be that we're using helping to control. I think that if we are, then it's a step in the right direction if we take responsibility for our part and for letting the other go.
The thing is, there are some really weird, subtle and totally counter-intuitive dynamics going on with codependency.
IMO, one of the things we do with codependent behaviour is we "buy love". We give help and get love in exchange.
Now, when we do that a lot, it's a questionable dynamic.
I think this is so insightful. Beatte talks a lot about loving and being loved authentically and the kind of exchange we get by helping. I spent a lot of time reflecting on this part in the book, which is chapter 9, pages 110-111 in the book to be exact. It described the dynamics between my ex bf whom I'm still kind of in the midst of breaking up with. I think the main thing is that we sacrifice authentic love, growth, and openness when we allow the kind of fixed, dysfunctional framework that is presented by addicts and dissociative tendencies. In trying to manage, protect, fix, reassure, etc. the other, we don't explore, take risks, grow, and relax and enjoy. It's so amazing to me how I came to the point that a relationship for me is about constantly propping up my significant other. It was so easy to ignore my own needs, but that's my background.
I for me personally don't pay any attention to the stuff that came out of the 12 step programs. I would avoid it at all costs, but that's just my opinion? I know people find it helpful but, etc etc. I don't use any of it. My humble opinion lol.
This is exactly why I think I didn't identify as copdendent in the past. I didn't think the 12 step programs were really for me, especially because I'm not that religious. But I totally agreed with those parts in the book when she talked about letting go and trusting that things would work out despite my not trying to micromanage things. She talks about giving up to a higher power. It made sense to me that my constantly running interference doesn't necessarily help any and so why not just trust the universe to do its work.
I think I've said more than my share for now. Thanks for starting the thread,
@Sophy. It's been a wonderful discussion so far!
