Love/hate

[PreciousChild]

I have a "theoretical question" if anyone is willing to take it on. I was watching a documentary on domestic abuse recently, and something that really struck me was the insanity of how violent some people get towards a person that truly loves them, perhaps even for the first time. There was one women who was basically held captive by her abuser for 13 hours, during which he had basically tortured her with beatings. She later saw him in the court room and nearly ran to him because she still felt love for him and wanted to make a life with the nicer version of him. There was another couple in which the boyfriend stalked the girlfriend relentlessly when he got mad, and threatened to kill her. The girlfriend said something that stuck with me - she said, "And all I ever did was love him."

I know that supporters here do not tolerate abuse, and I myself have not been in that kind of situation. But in my recent break-up, I noticed how vitriolic my ex would become towards me in a way that he was not to anyone else. That was true of my ex husband too, who as my sister put it, used to look at me with such hate, she was scared for me. At the same time, he would tell you that I was the only person who ever truly loved him and to this day, he probably considers me his only friend, though we've been divorced for a dozen years (I won't take his calls anymore). The documentary seemed to suggest that once the woman fell for the guy, the guy then changed. Why does being loved bring out the worst in the abuser (who might suffer from untreated ptsd)? Is it because they feel unworthy of that love? Is it transference? Heller thinks that anger is a "protest emotion" which signals that a person is not getting what they need. So perhaps that channel is opened up when someone loves them like they thought they should be and weren't so long ago? Though not the same thing at all as abuse, I think there is still insight there about the kind of love/hate thing that I experienced with my ex with untreated ptsd.

 

[Sweetpea76]

I think my vet's go-to reaction when stressed is aggression or lashing out. That's easier than being hurt or scared. He's been trained to ignore "flight" and automatically fight when stressed, and that training was reinforced in a combat situation.

He, however, is not an abusive person by nature. He doesn't cross that line. He's never called me a name for example. I also have some pretty well enforced boundary lines. That makes all the difference in the world.

 

[PreciousChild]

That makes sense, @Sweetpea76. Those are natural responses to stress, and he's more inclined towards the "fight" response. But it sounds like he handles his reactions responsibly. That's admirable. Something I'm also getting from your comment is that maybe it's also in part a defensive reaction. Love brings feelings of vulnerability and exposure, so maybe that triggers a defensive reaction that is as strong as the feelings it's trying to protect makes us feel weak.

 

[Sweetpea76]

I wouldn't say it's relationship/love he feels defensive about. We've been together for years. It's straight up stress in any form. He does it when the car needs fixed, or when the VA pisses him off, etc. He doesn't freeze, he doesn't run... he fights. I'm the one in closest proximity, so I get the joy of being the target. He knows I'm safe and familiar.

That's why the boundaries have to be there. I don't engage and remove myself when he starts in. If he wants to lash out, he can lash out at the wall. When he settles down and wants to talk like an adult, then he can come find me. It's routine.

Over time he has gotten much better at controlling it. He works very hard at it though, and he knows I don't tolerate any shenanigans either. I'd immediately end the relationship if he laid a finger on me in anger.

 

[PreciousChild]

I was definitely extrapolating my own thoughts about defensiveness from what you said in your post.

You seem to have a handle on setting boundaries, and I see how important it is to do that. He may not be flexible in terms of his reactions, but boundaries can direct those reactions in more acceptable ways. It also sounds like it might even be helping him gain control over his reactions or at least how he handles them. Those are good models to work towards on both sides.

 

[shimmerz]

Why does being loved bring out the worst in the abuser (who might suffer from untreated ptsd)?

Just my own personal thoughts on this.

My mother used to throw the word love around all the time. 'I am doing this because I love you.' 'This hurts me more than it hurts you.' (hard not to laugh at that one). 'I am grounding you for the full year (again) because I love you.'

Talk about f*cking up one's perception of love. Which could likely have a person subconsciously, or consciously believing that it isn't love without pain.

Add to that the myriad of complications when it comes to leaving a relationship. Kids. Worries about abuse for the kids. Financial issues. Fear of being harmed through the process. So many things.

It's very difficult to understand the nuances of being in the type of relationship that you describe. Planning an escape is not for the faint of heart.

 

[EveHarrington]

Love can be just as insane as hate, and there’s just a hairline separating them it seems.

Once the passion erupts, it can easily flip from good passion to bad passion.

However, I don’t think that it’s love.

 

[scout86]

There are a lot of different pathologies out there. Was this documentary about people with PTSD who are abusive? Because pretty sure most people who are abusive don't have PTSD.

SOME people seem to change once they feel secure in the relationship because they think they've got you and it's safe. The behavior up till then was a ruse to suck you in. Once you're committed, they figure your less likely to leave.

 

[Sweetpea76]

Was this documentary about people with PTSD who are abusive? Because pretty sure most people who are abusive don't have PTSD.

Exactly... somebody with PTSD isn't going to be abusive unless they have an abusive personality. That's what this all boils down to... personality.

I think a lot of people mistake that passion for love. That's not love. There's no hate in love... it's not even close to hate. It's the exact opposite.

 

[PreciousChild]

That makes sense, @shimmerz . I could see that in my ex - in his relationship with his dad, love hurt (and he has unexamined anger towards his mother for not doing anything to protect him), and I think that he sets up his relationships to come to that conclusion. Towards the end of the relationship, even my suggesting a restaurant became about me trying to put him down (because I didn't ask him where he wanted to go). I started to feel like a villain when in fact I was probably being pretty reasonable. In the abuse cases, the level of violence was so extreme, I feel that it's something affective rather than cognitive.

I agree @EveHarrington that there can be a fine line between good and bad passions, and that probably love is something distinct from them both and is not just about emotions, but also something one chooses and nurtures. But as @scout86 talks about, the documentary did seem to suggest that the abuse only begins once love is secured. I find that scary and curious.

There are a lot of different pathologies out there. Was this documentary about people with PTSD who are abusive?

The documentary was on abuse and not specifically about people with ptsd, and I think you're right that there are people with pathologies who abuse that don't have ptsd. However, I do believe that a lot of psychopathologies involve a violent childhood. There was a book written by a sociopath (I forgot the title), who made the argument that everyone should probably be more sociopathic because people tend to make bad decisions based on pity and feelings and stuff, rather than take a cold, hard look at a situation the way a sociopath does. The author also argued that violence was not inherent to sociopathy. In any case, whether there is a strong correlation, or if only a little, I do sense that that level of violence by an abuser against his loved one is rooted in pain. I'm not a psychologist, so it's just my opinion here.

After seeing the documentary, I listened to some TedTalks too about the subject. Am I allowed to post them here? One expert who happened also to have been a victim of domestic abuse, talked about how there is an actual pattern that abusers follow. They put up a charming facade to win the woman's love (I know it goes both ways, but I'll say "woman" as the victim because that's more frequent), make some move to isolate her (physically), and then begin abuse. I was dumbstruck because I realized that my ex husband also followed that pattern. But at the time, it seemed like there was a number of factors and reasons that made it totally the best choice to move away from where we were living. Once at a location far from friends and family, my ex began to target me for verbal abuse that also went along with him beginning to gamble again after years of sobriety. And this is what scout86 talked about too:

SOME people seem to change once they feel secure in the relationship because they think they've got you and it's safe. The behavior up till then was a ruse to suck you in. Once you're committed, they figure your less likely to leave.

I feel like there's something really perverse about finally finding love, security, and commitment from another, and that being the precondition for abuse in the case of domestic violence. Is getting love just about getting assurance that your victim will stay put? Or is getting love actually a trigger? Van der Kolk writes about how in the child abuse situation, the anger that fuels the parent is actually the parent's anger towards her own parents. He thinks that the abusive parent feels even victimized by their child. This is against the idea that the parent is just recreating the abuse situation through identification with the child. Does that make sense?

I'm just wondering what the relationship of love is to the kind of hate exhibited in some relationships. If it was just a matter of anger and aggression, then why not reserve hostility towards one's enemies or to bad guys? Why reserve it for the person who loves you the most? I feel like there's a larger story there.

Exactly... somebody with PTSD isn't going to be abusive unless they have an abusive personality. That's what this all boils down to... personality.

In biology, I learned that some men have an extra Y chromosome which causes them to produce extra testosterone and they tend to be more aggressive and are over-represented in prison populations. I also think maybe there are some people who are born with more spirited personalities. I personally feel that abuse is learned. But I could be wrong.

 

[EveHarrington]

the documentary did seem to suggest that the abuse only begins once love is secured.

I’d argue that it’s not love that is secured.

The appearance of love gives power and control.

Love isn’t the goal. Power and control are the goals. “Love” is nothing but a means to an end.

 

[PreciousChild]

I’d argue that it’s not love that is secured.

The appearance of love gives power and control.

Love isn’t the goal. Power and control are the goals. “Love” is nothing but a means to an end.

That's a good point. I think that these men seem to be motivated by power and control, and they seem to use love to achieve it. I think that's an apt way of describing the domestic abuse situation. But I still think it's a little more complicated than that.

It sounds like you've had some dating experiences, @EveHarrington, so you might understand this, but I've gone on blind dates with men who turned out to be players. One thing that's striking to me about almost all of them is how much effort they put into choking back love - they wined and dined, sometimes at great expense, they played games, lied, etc. But at least with a few of them, I felt that they truly liked me but instead of letting themselves feel that, they made our connection a game to gain power and control over me. I sensed in them a deep fear and vulnerability. I don't feel that a single "player" I've had the misfortune to date ever fit the stereotype of a don juan - cool and emotionally uninvested.

I kind of feel that men who would abuse their wives have a twisted up relationship with love, and that the violence, power, and control are all reactions to fighting against the strongest force in the world - love. Instead of just accepting it, they want to somehow use it against their partners. Maybe he wants her to feel what he felt as a child? Maybe he's using his power in a futile attempt to prove his invincibility to love? I do think that love is more powerful than any other force in the universe despite not having too much of that in my life!

Some philosophers believe power is just an extreme form of the desire for recognition. You only subjugate that which has his or own will. It would be unsatisfying to control a rock because it can't give him the recognition of his mastery. Maybe power is compensation for the lack of recognition as a child.