To those who've been here over five years

[scout86]

I'm not working hard enough. I'm sure there's some distorted thinking involved there...but really, if it would help motivate me to yell at myself more, I would do it. But it doesn't actually motivate me, it makes me sadder. Slower.

I don't think it often happens that people don't "do the work" because they're lazy. I think it's WAY more complicated than that. "Avoidance" is actually a symptom of PTSD, isn't it? But it's avoidance, not laziness. I think there are a lot of reasons and it's complicated, but it's not usually lazy.

Being able to blame things on laziness is just one more way of making a situation "all your fault". Which is a weird way of feeling like you have some control, I guess.

I'm not sure how long "getting better" is supposed to take. When I first started working with my T, he said that most people see him either 3 times or 30. He wasn't sure why, but it worked out that way. We got up around 30, I knew I wasn't "cured", so I figured he'd fire me. I worried about it for a few weeks, then decided I'd remove the suspense and ask him. He burst out laughing and said, at that moment, I was his "least fireable" client. He said he'd referenced "most people" and that I wasn't most people, so not to worry about it. He also said he'd like me to get better "as fast as I can, but not faster". I still worry about it occasionally, but we haven't talked about it in a long time. For better or worse, I really don't have other people in the real world I can use as a resource like I can my T and I actually DO benefit from the resource.

 

[Abstract]

So much to say and no time. Trying to get myself to do better sleep! Will come back.

I suspect part of this is coming from the place you find yourself in. Internally. If you didn't care and were "lazy" you wouldn't be asking the question or battling the demons in the way you are. And I think part of that inner critic is to berate or judge ourselves for not doing more. And sometimes self judgement spills outwards. And no, this complex stuff is not all fixed in year or so if it is has been there for ages, hidden and causing havoc in multiple ways. The analogy I have thought of quite obsessively in recent years is that there is an obstacIe course between me and dealing with the trauma. More recently I have realised the "skills" or coping methods that helped me hide the trauma are exactly the ones slowing down my progress at this point.

What do the obstacles in the obstacle course look like?
Indoctrination about not speaking,
Trauma messages
no skill set of speaking,
lack of trust in others,
Many many years with no diagnose,
many many more years dealing with denial,
many years learning basic personality function stuff and dealing with other mental health stuff such as basic understanding of my emotions, anorexia, depression, social anxiety etc
overcoming avoidance enough to start approaching it,
Dissociation
Poor treatment
unhelpful treatment
wrong diagnoses
Lack of finances.
Breakdowns.
Lack of support.
Constant low grade shitty stuff adding to what needs to be dealt with day by day. Extra dollop of trauma here and there.


Really progress is about many things. Access to good, person suited and correct treatment. Developmental stuff. Personality stuff. Complicating issues. Chance and luck. The amount of trauma. The type of trauma. The severity of the PTSD and complexity thereof. The specific coping mechanisms the person happens to take up. The support they have. Possible biological stuff. Medical complicating factors. ete etc etc.

What I have always done and which I find helpful is not to fixate on an end point. I rather try to keep focusing on what I can change now and appreciate progress. Progress isn't about less pain. It is about development. Lots of progress is initially more painful. I try to keep an eye on the journey. Enlightenment for want of a better word.

It is around 35 years since my first lot of therapy and I joined here in 2011, around the time I was diagnosed. I have practically torn myself into pieces trying to get better at times. See that in others here. We learn different things at different times and it is what is is. We can only do what we know how to do at any one time.

You now have a diagnoses for the dissociation and are receiving professional treatment. Progress. You made that happen.

Actually think it is a good question though. Its always worth considering what it is that is slowing us and trying to deal with it, if possible.

PS. That wasn't short after all. ? Sleep!

 

[Sandstone]

What is the point of you asking? Why do you want to know?

what would motivate you to do it?

Just because one person achieves a certain level of life does not mean everyone should be expected to.

But I need to, I need to earn money and I'm not capable of that. I was volunteering, two hours a month outside the house, eight hours a week of homework. As soon as it got difficult I ran away, just as I ran away from work. That can't go on, so I need to identify what the problem is and change it.

Can you find a term maybe more accurate, and less putting down of yourself, or less critical, of self or others?

I've been self-indulgent for years. It hasn't made me better. People love to suggest "be kind to yourself", but that doesn't actually translate in to getting washed, dressed and out the door

the right to ask yourself why you are choosing not to heal

Laziness and cowardice. I'm afraid, and it has been possible for me to hide, so I have. Plus, I'm not really used to working at stuff, things have come easily to me, so I don't apply myself enough.

What time scale would you have seen as appropriate for yourself to be 'better' within? What would 'better' look like to you in terms of your own progress?

I think a year off work, and a year of easing back would have been enough. Better, for me would look like being consistently functional. That is the problem - there are lots of people here who have PTSD, but manage to go to work, support their families, have social lives. So I think I must be using it as an excuse to avoid all this, and a bit more self discipline would enable me to use tools to push through the inconvenient symptoms. I'm not aspiring not to be distressed, just to be able to function through it.

let’s replace PTSD with any other mental illness.

But PTSD isn't schizophrenia. I don't think anyone believes it is anything like as serious - certainly I've been told so by the local NHS, whose crisis team told me they were busy with people who are really ill. Depression is more like PTSD, in that it susceptible to hard work - as I've seen in all three of the people I've known who've had it.

Question for you: what would it mean to you if you actually have done the hard work, but haven’t seen the improvements that you were hoping for yet?

But I know I haven't. Even now, I'm reading a book to support part of therapy, but I've only done one of the exercises in i,t twice in five days.

It's been five years (I checked) but, who says I'm not better?! : )

In my case, I know I'm not. When I have better spells, I'm not sitting on the internet, I'm doing things. So I wouldn't be here, I'd be pursuing a hobby, or seeing friends and family, or maintaining the house and garden, And if I was actually better, I'd be persisting with those things even when it was hard. Instead, I'm faced with a constricted life where on my best days I still do less than I used to fit round the edge of a full-time job.

so much of the ethos of this site is about PTSD not being a licence to behave badly. But I use it to excuse idleness

 

[Mach123]

Here's the problem for me. You're turning your abuse on yourself to try and make you better. ( IMHO ) My wife helped me with this meaning she jumped on the bandwagon. So when I wasn't beating on me she was. This approach didn't work (for me) so I tried to kill myself to make it stop. That didn't work either.

So, now I see both sides. The reasons I "ran away" are slightly more subtle than your posts suggest, but I'm afraid you'd see that as "making excuses."

I don't mind because I'm not suicidally depressed. A lot of people have given up their time to help me. I'm not trying to argue against what you're saying nor convince you I have a superior point of view. Fear of failure and crime and punishment work mostly.

But you'll excuse me. : )

I'm kidding because I think this is funny but that's not to say I have not had an awful struggle with it. I lead a very restricted life and my inabilities and failings are terrible. I laugh now more than I cry though.

I've improved but it'll never be enough. : )

 

[rosey]

It is a great question.

Biologically speaking PTSD changes your brain structure, can it be changed back to give a full recovery? This is not yet known. Maybe some people with PTSD will never get fully better, with all the skills and therapy in the world. Based on this I stopped aiming for complete recovery and now work on what I need to do to stay functional, safe and symptons reduced. I would not claim to be better but different yes.

 

[Lionheart]

Laziness and cowardice. I'm afraid, and it has been possible for me to hide, so I have.

Thank you for being honest. You have answered my question and so I will answer yours.

I am much better than I was when I first came here to this site. I have delayed onset, complex PTSD and have been disabled by it for many a year. I was an absolute mess when I first came here, but since then, I have found that peer support and exposure therapy (this site), is some of the best therapy there is...at least for me.

I have several chronic illnesses as well as Major Depression and continuing PTSD, and so I choose to continue to work on improving myself and my quality of life. That is the reason I am still here as an active member of this site.

 

[scout86]

Being self indulgent isn't the same as being kind to yourself. Does behind mean to yourself help get you out the door, or does it just punish you for not as much as think should? Is there a reward for "doing the work"?

As far as being able to work goes, I know that I, personally, do better when I'm working. If it wasn't for my job, I'd probably never talk to anyone. But different people have different experiences. And different jobs makes different demands on us.

As far as "doing something" goes, the first step is to decide to do it. The next step is to do it. Then, accept that you made the best effort you could at the time and build on that. If the plan is to try, then punish yourself for not being good enough.... How does that inspire the next effort? It inspires paralysis.

 

[Sandstone]

Does behind mean to yourself help get you out the door,

The only thing that gets me out the door is committing to do it for someone else. At the weekend I went out twice - OH wanted to go to a market, so I went, though with inner representment at having to. Then I'd committed to going to the Holocaust memorial service, so I did that to honour the dead.
It doesn't help that the NHS said I shouldn't go out alone. I expect that has been superceded now, but the confirmation of fear remains.

But overall, neither being kind or pushy work. I procrastinate getting dressed every day. It doesn't make any difference if I say "Oh yes, poor you, I know why that is scary", or "For goodness sake woman, just do it". I'll still stand up with intention of getting dressed, then decide to make a cup of tea first, then finally make it upstairs only to find myself sorting the washing. Today I'm really cold, but I need to outside to get the coal, so I'm not lighting the fire.

I need to change all this. I don't understand why just getting on with it no longer works. Except that now I have someone in my life who allows me to, instead of shoving.

 

[blackemerald1]

But PTSD isn't schizophrenia. I don't think anyone believes it is anything like as serious - certainly I've been told so by the local NHS, whose crisis team told me they were busy with people who are really ill. Depression is more like PTSD, in that it susceptible to hard work - as I've seen in all three of the people I've known who've had it.

There are so many things wrong with this broad brush statement you have been told I am lost as where to begin. So I won't. Remember this next time anyone tells you ptsd isn't as serious as... ask them to check the stats for suicide, self-harm etc., to sufferers without even looking at the emotional strain on supporters and the health system.

Severity of illnesses cannot judged by a label. A crisis team ought to have known better - shame on them. If they were trying to cause you to feel guilt and shame it seems they did a good job.

 

[scout86]

It doesn't make any difference if I say "Oh yes, poor you, I know why that is scary", or "For goodness sake woman, just do it"

I've experienced that too. What actually works is "doing" without "thinking". Sometimes "thinking" is just another way of procrastinating. It's a bit of an ongoing struggle and I can't say that I understand it at all. With things like "tea before getting dressed", I actually DO tell myself it's ok to have the tea AFTER you get dressed, kind of like I'd do with a child. I suspect that some of this has to do with thinking that YOUR wishes don't matter, it has to be what someone else wants for it to count. The only way I can see to deal with that is to deliberately go against the grain and insist that what I want DOES count, even if I don't want it to. For example, the fact that you want to light the fire is plenty of justification for going out to get the coal. If you don't want to get the coal, maybe you just don't want the fire badly enough?

 

[Sandstone]

If you don't want to get the coal, maybe you just don't want the fire badly enough?

Which is where we came in. Why haven't I done enough to recover? Because I just don't want it badly enough.

 

[scout86]

My T says I'm not allowed to ask myself questions that begin with the word "why". I can ask HIM, if I absolutely have to, but he'd prefer I come up with a better way to ask the question. He says those "why?" questions usually lead you down a road that's not very useful.

The whole "recovery" thing is complicated all by itself. I don't know about you, but I don't think I HAVE a "before" period to aspire to. I have no idea what I've "lost" and I have no idea, really, what "recovery" looks like. At a very basic level, sometimes I wonder....well, who or what I'd BE, if I was "normal". It's a little hard to be motivated when you have no clue what the end result is going to be.

At the same time, I'm not sure how long "recovery" actually takes. I think, maybe, if you were in a bad car accident, as a totally normal, mentally healthy person, and came out of it with PTSD, you might well fit into my T's "3 sessions or 30" scenario. But if you grew up with some rather dysfunctional threads already running through your life and THEN had a Criteria A event? That would be different, wouldn't it? And if you had other, co-morbid conditions? Yet a different set of problems, right? Add to that people are all different and have their own ways of experiencing things.....

There have been a number of times when I've thought I was stupid because of something I'd been looking at "wrong". My T has replied with, "Yeah? And exactly WHEN would you have had a chance to figure that out before this???" And he's right. You only have the chance to learn what you have the chance to learn. There have been other times when he's said, "Based on your experiences, I can see how you'd think that, but actually, you're wrong." And, again, he's right. I've had the experiences I've had and they've lead to the conclusions I've reached. What I've overlooked is that my experiences are based on a subset of the population that isn't really representative. (Good thing!)

So, I don't know what, exactly, you need to do to "recover". I don't know that there IS a time line. It takes as long as it takes. I don't know how much of what you need to do you've been exposed to, or had the opportunity to do. I don't know how much you've been capable of doing. (Because some stuff you really have to be ready for and that takes time too.) It's even possible that laziness is one factor. If it is, it's not the ultimate sin. It's a human thing that pretty much everyone experiences at some time or other.