Do I tell my brother this is hurtful to me?

[scout86]

Years of him as an adult enabling my father and one day he suddenly is the target and he stops enabling it. Basically cuts my father out of his life. In the middle of it, my father is sort of trying to reconnect with me?

I was recently talking about my one family and the feeling I have that I should be able to "fix" things, if I just can figure out how to do it "right". He said that's an understandable feeling/desire and that all the TV shows where some kind of "expert" gathers a family together to "fix" things, and it looks like it works, and in an hour or less, kind of contribute to the belief that it's possible. Sometimes I suppose it actually works. What I quoted from your post though, makes me think that dear old dad is looking for someone else he can collect up to use as a scapegoat when he needs/wants one.

I have to think that kids growing up in that kind of family are going to have very different perceptions of reality, based on the roles they were assigned. It seems like, if you were "the golden child" your first exposure to the family dynamic is going to be the parents' point of view. So "the scapegoat" is going to look like they're doing everything wrong and deserve what ever they get. It WILL look like they're provoking the parent, for example. They might see some glimmers of unfairness, they might totally buy in to what the official family dynamic is. In the case of your brother, it sounds like when dear old dad turned on him he realized that his father was capable of being unfair and mean and that was an eye opener. Now? Do you suppose he might feel guilty over the family dynamic and his part in it? People are going to vary in how guilty they might feel and how they handle it. I wonder if that's part of what you're seeing in his recent behavior? I don't know what you DO about that. Be open to the possibilities maybe? But I wouldn't expect too much. He's grown up learning the value of scapegoats and that's not a role you want to have assigned to you again.

 

[Tinyflame]

But me as a person? Doesn't really show any signs of caring. Like it's a duty or a favor to do lunch together. Engages others with warmth, asks how they are etc, and none of that towards me. Talks about himself, his family, etc. But it's not reciprocal. His wife reaches out, sort of, but it's weird. All weird. I don't really feel like I know any of them, because we have been so distant for so long - except my mother.

I'm not sure what to do or how to process it. I'd like to have a relationship with him. I also know it just may be too far gone. I'm also mad. Like WTF. I can't express that to any of them, because what's the point? For 8 years my father said I didn't exist and my brother joined him in it. Now they suddenly treat me like I exist. My father got me a Christmas gift. What. My brother can't even bother with a card. A hello. I want to tell him this isn't an okay way to treat me, but also know that he'll likely just cut off all contact if I do. It's to the degree it feels hurtful, unfair, etc... but years ago, when I tried to say anything of it, I was rewarded with 8 years of being cut off by him because "it's too painful for you to bring it up." What?

I guess I need perspective on this dynamic with my brother.

I just wanted to add this, Idk if it will resonate with you or not @Justmehere :

I personally feel like, with family, friends, partners, acquaintances: I could be seen or viewed positively, maybe complex; compassionately as traumatized; negatively as crazy or worthless, and not worth the effort. It no longer matters to me in so far as there is also the question of how do 'I' feel, whether I am complex, broken or valued or scapegoated. If you are not accepted- maybe even more so not cherished (because you should be)- why waste concern or time about what they think? Part of that (IMHO from having to do what sounds like the same) is jockeying around all and everyone's likes, proclivities and dynamics. It's good to be wise, and diplomatic. And it's also good to ask yourself who treats you with love and concern. Value yourself. What they choose, is their choice, not just what they think but how they act. You deserve kindness, love and respect.

 

[Justmehere]

This is really helpful. Thank you for all the thoughtful responses. It's such a effed up situation...

Feels like a bit of putting the cart in front of the horse.

Meaning, he’s not a friend, now… but holding him to the same standards you’d hold a friend to.

This is something I needed to read. We are more strangers than anything. It's silly to hold him to be like a friend when we barely even know each other now.

i'm the "golden child" in my criminally dysfunctional family, more often called, "the rich aunt." according to my shrinks, i am every bit as damaged as the siblings who crawled into self-medication containers instead of workaholic distractions.

Yeah. Good point. He's always had ways the trauma affected him... just hides it better? You are so right though. Years ago he even complained of being the golden child who could do no wrong in anyone's eyes. I have no doubt the pain runs deep. I struggle to understand his way of interacting with our dysfunctional family. I have had my own maladaptive way of coping. I can't imagine seeing a parent rage at a sibling and saying it's okay... and yet... I wonder if the tables feel turned a bit. Here my father raged at him, and I just reconnected with the rager. So... huh.

And maybe there is the fear/expectation of how he might be based on how he has been in the past.
And maybe there is something in the middle? If he is able to show some elements of 'friendship' (which I take to mean understanding, mutual engagement etc) and is still an asshole in other areas that he is unable to change (yet? Ever?)

This is a good thing for me to remember. He is likely a mix - not all good or all bad.

Randomly = there’s no focus to it. It’s simply when I think of it, as I feel like it. No stress, no pressure, no reliability, no expectations. IF they get back to me or reciprocate? Awesome. If not? No skin off my nose… because I haven’t made this… effort …that is unrewarded/ feels like wasted time / why do I even bother/ detracts from people (or parts of my life) I could be focusing on if I weren’t directing energy their way, etc.

This is really helpful. I had started to do just this - send a card there, an email here, etc. Sometimes he responds, sometimes he doesn't, and if I have no expectations, it works out ok. It actually seems to get better over time. A little.

The past is a massive subject. Maybe instead, it could be focusing on the future. I.e. saying "brother you know I would really like to have more of a relationship with you, perhaps we could start talking more or seeing each other" or something like that?

I did ask this about 18 months ago. The breakdown with my brother and father was very fresh then. He said he was very "indifferent" towards having a relationship at all. He explained it wasn't that he didn't want it or did want it, he just was numb to it. Okay. I have been numb in other ways. He didn't say no or yes. Then he kept responding now and then to some of the times I initiated contact, for the first time in years, and twice initiated contact himself. So. Maybe that's something? I struggle to connect as well. We are strangers in many ways.

shared trauma is a sneaky, snaky bond. the typically unspoken secrecy codes of family dysfunction make it hard to know what is leaning which way. healing those family dysfunctions calls for many, many leaps of faith and even more patience with the process.

Yeah. It's wild how much it hits deep.

Good luck and surround yourself with kindness. The family is not always what it's cracked up to be, and your brother may need his own processing to deal with his relationship to your father, as well as yours together.

Thank you.

What I quoted from your post though, makes me think that dear old dad is looking for someone else he can collect up to use as a scapegoat when he needs/wants one.

This is what I'm concerned about. My father just went from 15 years of stating I don't exist to 18 months of trying to reconnect... once my brother stopped talking to him. Only then.

In the case of your brother, it sounds like when dear old dad turned on him he realized that his father was capable of being unfair and mean and that was an eye opener. Now? Do you suppose he might feel guilty over the family dynamic and his part in it? People are going to vary in how guilty they might feel and how they handle it. I wonder if that's part of what you're seeing in his recent behavior? I don't know what you DO about that. Be open to the possibilities maybe? But I wouldn't expect too much. He's grown up learning the value of scapegoats and that's not a role you want to have assigned to you again.

I don't right now see any sign of any guilt. At all. Which frankly... he should feel guilty! He enabled an asshole! But then, now am I?

You are right though, they will be quick to push me back into scapegoat at the drop of a hat. I have to stay out of that role... Even if it means staying away from all of them.

If you are not accepted- maybe even more so not cherished (because you should be)- why waste concern or time about what they think? Part of that (IMHO from having to do what sounds like the same) is jockeying around all and everyone's likes, proclivities and dynamics. It's good to be wise, and diplomatic. And it's also good to ask yourself who treats you with love and concern. Value yourself. What they choose, is their choice, not just what they think but how they act. You deserve kindness, love and respect.

Thank you for this. The whole situation has me thinking of where can I find the connection and type of relationship and being valued that I don't and won't find in my family - but instead from myself and chosen relationships.

I think my next step will be to reach out in a month or so with a card to say hello to him and his wife and kids, something silly and fun, maybe send candy for the kiddos. No expectations. Maybe just be the aunt that sends something silly and fun now and then to his kids, and a card to say I'm thinking of him as my brother, and see what happens.

Thanks all.

 

[arfie]

I can't imagine seeing a parent rage at a sibling and saying it's okay... and yet... I wonder

it was harder to wonder if, as the golden child, am i defective for not being able to stop the abuse? will buying my 10 siblings new cars repair the damage of the abuse? after decades of psychotherapy for my savior complex, i'm still not as sure as my shrinks seem to be.

I wonder if the tables feel turned a bit. Here my father raged at him, and I just reconnected with the rager. So... huh.

the tables of family dysfunction turn continually. in my own birth family, those tables turn with the speed and predictability of a roulette wheel. it is never so simple as a just. healing hopes for all. no exceptions. family dysfunction be a very complex and tangled web.

 

[Justmehere]

it was harder to wonder if, as the golden child, am i defective for not being able to stop the abuse? will buying my 10 siblings new cars repair the damage of the abuse? after decades of psychotherapy for my savior complex, i'm still not as sure as my shrinks seem to be.

My brother told me that he felt like "I could control him" until he became the new target. He is clear "I do not feel safe around him." I responded by telling him I understand, as someone who has been targeted too, it makes perfect sense to me to not feel safe around him after what happened. I didn't know what else to say. He told me he would not leave his kids alone with him again, and I validated I wouldn't either if I was in his shoes. I support whatever boundaries he needs as he navigates it. I said what no one said to me. When I had set boundaries with my father in the past as a child an an adult, I was screamed at, disowned, blamed, penalized, abused further, etc.

I told him I didn't know what to say, and I would fumble and make mistakes, but I'm here for him in what ways I can be as he goes on his journey.

He changed the subject. So I did too. But I wonder how it is all impacting him to lose that sense that he could prevent the abuse towards him that he knew others suffered.

I too tried to make everyone happy, fix it all, in my own sort of magical thinking type of way... it's taken a long time for me to let go, and it in many ways, I am still wrestling with it.

I think it's normal for kids to want to make everything okay, and it's hard as adults to let go of the belief we can make it okay.

 

[Friday]

I think it's normal for kids to want to make everything okay, and it's hard as adults to let go of the belief we can make it okay.

My brother told me that he felt like "I could control him" until he became the new target.

(@arfie, too.)

Cha.

There’s a quirky thing that happens with siblings in abuse, where the other kids become extensions of themselves, regardless of what role (protector, scapegoat, whipping boy, etc.) any of them hold. So instead of just blaming themselves like adults do in DV? (It’s all my fault, I should have, I shouldn’t have, I know better than, I I I). The self blame with kids parcels onto their brothers and sisters: Why did you have to, why couldn’t you, why didn’t you, you did this, you know better, you could have, etc. Woth all the same passion and belief that the abuser? Can be controlled, made not to abuse, by their own actions. Whether it’s standing up to them, or going along with them, or being nice to them, or fighting back at them… each child tends to be driven keeeeerazy by every other child that doesn’t do what they themselves do, so the abuser “won’t” abuse.

Trauma Thinking + Magical Thinking = A Whole Lotta Pain

They also often become core beliefs. Takes something like an abuser turning 180 degrees after the kids are adults to shake them, more often than not.

Like you & your brother are both experiencing, right now, with roles reversed and finding yourselves each doing what the other did.

Abuse. The mindf*ckery that just keeps on going. And going. And going.

 

[arfie]

But I wonder how it is all impacting him to lose that sense that he could prevent the abuse towards him that he knew others suffered.

while i still believed i could prevent that abuse toward myself, a huge part of me believed that stopping one piece of the abuse helped prevent the abuse toward my siblings. i never really let go of that childish delusion until recovery led me to let go of the delusion that i could control others. ever. period.

There’s a quirky thing that happens with siblings in abuse, where the other kids become extensions of themselves, regardless of what role (protector, scapegoat, whipping boy, etc.) any of them hold.

proof unavailable, but i believe that phenom is not unique to abused children. children are extremely narcissistic by nature. just believing.

 

[Ididn'twantit]

I grew up in an abuse filled household. My mother was checked out due to dissociation and something else I don't understand... She still has a weird habit of laughing when others are crying and ignoring pain of others. More than being a bystander. I was the main target as a child of the abuse -- and the scapegoat. Even as an adult living far away with zero to no contact, I was blamed for any rage episodes he had about anything. My brother has said he was seen as the golden child. He also has more success as an adult - lived up to it. Meanwhile, I'm always struggling with mental health and trying to survive... ugh.

It's all typical alcoholic dysfunctional family patterns. Just make him happy I was told... and somehow my brother sort of wasn't ever the target and was seen as making him happy. They kept a relationship, and my brother sort of shut me out - for failure to make my father happy. About two years ago, my father apparently snapped, went after my brother. I dunno quite what happened. My brother told me "I thought I could control him, manage the rage episodes, and then he went after me, like he used to go after you."

Years of him as an adult enabling my father and one day he suddenly is the target and he stops enabling it. Basically cuts my father out of his life. In the middle of it, my father is sort of trying to reconnect with me? I have no idea. I just visited for the second time in 15 years. So. Lots of weird. Not sure what I should do for me or where my boundaries are going to be at the moment with my father and mother. I have safety boundaries but not sure what to do with the whole thing beyond that.

My brother is also sort of reconnecting to me. Sort of. I reach out, as I always have, when I have been in town where they all live. He'd invite me over to his place. He doesn't really seem to care about me as a person though. He's randomly defensive about his boundaries with my father, without my bringing it up -- to which I am nothing but validating that I'm glad he is doing what he needs to do to keep himself and his family safe and I fully support him on whatever he decides is right for him with my father. I won't be getting in the middle of that. I also know he may be traumatized so whatever about the random defensiveness.

But me as a person? Doesn't really show any signs of caring. Like it's a duty or a favor to do lunch together. Engages others with warmth, asks how they are etc, and none of that towards me. Talks about himself, his family, etc. But it's not reciprocal. His wife reaches out, sort of, but it's weird. All weird. I don't really feel like I know any of them, because we have been so distant for so long - except my mother.

I'm not sure what to do or how to process it. I'd like to have a relationship with him. I also know it just may be too far gone. I'm also mad. Like WTF. I can't express that to any of them, because what's the point? For 8 years my father said I didn't exist and my brother joined him in it. Now they suddenly treat me like I exist. My father got me a Christmas gift. What. My brother can't even bother with a card. A hello. I want to tell him this isn't an okay way to treat me, but also know that he'll likely just cut off all contact if I do. It's to the degree it feels hurtful, unfair, etc... but years ago, when I tried to say anything of it, I was rewarded with 8 years of being cut off by him because "it's too painful for you to bring it up." What?

I guess I need perspective on this dynamic with my brother. Maybe I just need to accept he's kind of an asshole who won't change.

It started when I was 7. Our mother checked out and left me with my 3 older brothers. Her first marriage ended in rape and "spousal abandonment". The eldest wasn't a pervert at least. I have recently figured out I'm a victim of a narcissistic older brother who himself was abused by our grandmother at age 2, our father for years and a homosexual groomer in high school. Dad was a victim of polio and our broken medical community. He was abused by nuns who hated men while in Children's Hospital in Denver. The abuse was even before then and was just exacerbated.

For me first was the emotional abuse that started at age 3. Then came the physical abuse in the bath tube with my Dad. Dad hated children because his childhood was taken from him, so he molested his own sons. By age 8 my Mother realized I had been violated and removed me from that perverted environment. Before she did I was sexually tortured by another brother and his homosexual lover. He had molested young girls in the community for years. I'm now 65 and those brothers still think they have influence over my life. My problem is feeling the need for revenge. At this point I just want them to leave me alone.

 

[PreciousChild]

I had the same dynamic in my family - my older brother was the golden child and I was the scapegoat. I related to this:

My brother is also sort of reconnecting to me. Sort of. I reach out, as I always have, when I have been in town where they all live. He'd invite me over to his place. He doesn't really seem to care about me as a person though.

When I visit him and his wife, they don't ask me how I am, or anything about my life. They don't even offer me a snack or any but the barest hospitality. To me, it's just the surface sign of a deep contempt that I believe he (they) will always harbor. The only thing that keeps them a little on their toes is that their kids adore me and can't wait to see me. Apparently they count down until I come to visit. It's hard for them to completely erase my humanity when their kids appreciate me that much. But I think it totally goes against their worldview to think I have any good in me and it is very hard for them to show me any kindness.

I strongly believe that my older brother will always have contempt for me. That is how he survived - he diverted the bad, contemptuous feelings he had inside from our upbringing and projected them all on me. I have lots of stories in which he scapegoated me. For him to admit that I'm fine would mean he would finally have to embrace his shadow self, and he's never going to do that, at least without therapy, which he doesn't do. It might be kind of cynical, but I would only do as much for him as you were willing with the knowledge that he won't change.

 

[Bill Shafer]

I grew up in an abuse filled household. My mother was checked out due to dissociation and something else I don't understand... She still has a weird habit of laughing when others are crying and ignoring pain of others. More than being a bystander. I was the main target as a child of the abuse -- and the scapegoat. Even as an adult living far away with zero to no contact, I was blamed for any rage episodes he had about anything. My brother has said he was seen as the golden child. He also has more success as an adult - lived up to it. Meanwhile, I'm always struggling with mental health and trying to survive... ugh.

It's all typical alcoholic dysfunctional family patterns. Just make him happy I was told... and somehow my brother sort of wasn't ever the target and was seen as making him happy. They kept a relationship, and my brother sort of shut me out - for failure to make my father happy. About two years ago, my father apparently snapped, went after my brother. I dunno quite what happened. My brother told me "I thought I could control him, manage the rage episodes, and then he went after me, like he used to go after you."

Years of him as an adult enabling my father and one day he suddenly is the target and he stops enabling it. Basically cuts my father out of his life. In the middle of it, my father is sort of trying to reconnect with me? I have no idea. I just visited for the second time in 15 years. So. Lots of weird. Not sure what I should do for me or where my boundaries are going to be at the moment with my father and mother. I have safety boundaries but not sure what to do with the whole thing beyond that.

My brother is also sort of reconnecting to me. Sort of. I reach out, as I always have, when I have been in town where they all live. He'd invite me over to his place. He doesn't really seem to care about me as a person though. He's randomly defensive about his boundaries with my father, without my bringing it up -- to which I am nothing but validating that I'm glad he is doing what he needs to do to keep himself and his family safe and I fully support him on whatever he decides is right for him with my father. I won't be getting in the middle of that. I also know he may be traumatized so whatever about the random defensiveness.

But me as a person? Doesn't really show any signs of caring. Like it's a duty or a favor to do lunch together. Engages others with warmth, asks how they are etc, and none of that towards me. Talks about himself, his family, etc. But it's not reciprocal. His wife reaches out, sort of, but it's weird. All weird. I don't really feel like I know any of them, because we have been so distant for so long - except my mother.

I'm not sure what to do or how to process it. I'd like to have a relationship with him. I also know it just may be too far gone. I'm also mad. Like WTF. I can't express that to any of them, because what's the point? For 8 years my father said I didn't exist and my brother joined him in it. Now they suddenly treat me like I exist. My father got me a Christmas gift. What. My brother can't even bother with a card. A hello. I want to tell him this isn't an okay way to treat me, but also know that he'll likely just cut off all contact if I do. It's to the degree it feels hurtful, unfair, etc... but years ago, when I tried to say anything of it, I was rewarded with 8 years of being cut off by him because "it's too painful for you to bring it up." What?

I guess I need perspective on this dynamic with my brother. Maybe I just need to accept he's kind of an asshole who won't change.

So, sounds so much like my relationship with my brothers. There is no cure for them. You aren't your brother's keeper. Heal thyself and stop feeling guilty when you can manage it. My two abusers live a continent apart but still pull me into their dramas. You have no obligation to keep feeding their codependence, period. All the reasons and excuses we make for them. You are much more than they will ever be and they know that. Be all that you can be and more than they ever imagined. Living well will hurt them more. BE YOU; better than them. Go placidly amide the noise and haste and above all else, believe in yourself.