Contradictions in the advice we're given

[Applecore]

Also agree with @arfie that some of these contradictions are not necessarily binary contradictions but about balance (finding the sweet spot in between the two statements)

I agree - and how do we find that balance? How do we assess the extent to which someone is:

(i) appropriately opening up and telling their story of trauma and sorrow,

versus

(ii) being negative, pessimistic, self indulgent, addicted to complaining, emotionally dysregulated or 'vulnerable narcissist'?

 

[barefoot]

how do we find that balance?

Well, that’s probably the million dollar question!

Don’t think I know enough to have a good or useful answer.

But, to me, some of this:

(ii) being negative, pessimistic, self indulgent, addicted to complaining, emotionally dysregulated or 'vulnerable narcissi

feels quite extreme (‘addicted to complaining’, for instance). If we’re always/often in - or coming from - that place? And that there is quite a distance between your (i) and (ii) lists. And lots of possibilities between those points (perhaps that’s where the balance is maybe? In the in between?)

I think we’re all ‘allowed’ to feel negative or to get emotionally dysregulated sometimes. Because life can be hard, our circumstances are not always ideal etc. I have PTSD (quite well under control at the moment, touch wood!) and ADHD (just starting medication so not really under control at this point) and emotional dysregulation is a common symptom of both. So, we are allowed some grace with some of these things, I think, just for being human beings?

So, maybe it’s a matter of degree?

Feeling pessimistic about life/people/our progress with PTSD/whatever is ok if we hit a bump in the road and that’s our reaction at that point? Long term always taking a pessimistic approach to everything/everyone/our PTSD journey/whatever - probably not ultimately going to be helpful for us?

But if we do get stuck in negativity, pessimism, complaining etc..,I guess I’d be curious about why. What’s underlying that? A critical ‘don’t be negative!’ or ‘you’re being really self-indulgent - stop it!) without exploring and addressing where those thoughts feelings and behaviours are coming from, are not very helpful, I don’t think.

Don’t think I’m writing anything valuable here, think I’m just rambling (I did say ADHD not under control at the moment! )

Will think about this some more…

 

[user27357]

i was given a drug that all but eliminated the worste of the symptoms, let me sleep and even feel joy most days, then told to use it sparingly. When i complained that the periods of relief that i thought should be all the time were too brief, i was given another form of the drug and told to use it sparingly. When it became daily use of both drugs, filling my scripts on the day they became fillable for several years, i was told to use them sparingly.
got off a year ago, been hell, thanks to my enablers and suppliers for the years of numbness/dumbness. i was warned, I guess?

 

[Applecore]

i was given a drug that all but eliminated the worste of the symptoms, let me sleep and even feel joy most days, then told to use it sparingly. When i complained that the periods of relief that i thought should be all the time were too brief, i was given another form of the drug and told to use it sparingly. When it became daily use of both drugs, filling my scripts on the day they became fillable for several years, i was told to use them sparingly.
got off a year ago, been hell, thanks to my enablers and suppliers for the years of numbness/dumbness. i was warned, I guess?

You've been through a lot. And you're clean of them now, right? How do you feel these days?

But if we do get stuck in negativity, pessimism, complaining etc..,I guess I’d be curious about why. What’s underlying that? A critical ‘don’t be negative!’ or ‘you’re being really self-indulgent - stop it!) without exploring and addressing where those thoughts feelings and behaviours are coming from, are not very helpful, I don’t think.

Don’t think I’m writing anything valuable here,

Actually this is highly valuable, a great point.

Will think about this some more…

Please do, looking forward to it...

 

[arfie]

but I am not going to be a cheerleader for Quixotic madness. So what can be effective support, in that case?

my own approach to this conundrum is to be aware, open and honest about my own limitations. i am human and a multiply certified nutjob, to boot. when i am feeling my limitations, i am not likely to have effective support to give. letting the person i am attempting to support know i am at my limit can give me the opportunity to ply self-care while leaving the door open to future dialog.

for what it's worth

methinks this approach might be easier for me than for your average bear. my hearing impairment is the perfect excuse for not listening to quixotic (or whateveric) drivel. phone-phobe here. don't bother calling. text only.

 

[user27357]

You've been through a lot. And you're clean of them now, right? How do you feel these days?

clean on all fronts. Clarity can be a mother. But it definitely beats the alternative, cant work out the problems you have lost sight of in the fog, getting better at not spending the whole night working on them.

 

[Friday]

I agree - and how do we find that balance?

Experience & boundaries.

…has anyone ever refused to ring up your groceries to detail how they were anally raped? Is that what you EXPECT when you go to buy cereal & oranges for breakfast? Or is that a bizarre & strange experience, that you do NOT EXPECT when you’re trying to buy food?

 

[Applecore]

clean on all fronts. Clarity can be a mother. But it definitely beats the alternative, cant work out the problems you have lost sight of in the fog, getting better at not spending the whole night working on them.

That sounds like an excellent change for the better. Isn't it?

And in keeping with the topic, it seems that you have resolved the contradiction between working out problems and being lost in the fog.

"Work your stuff out" versus "take this little pill that surrounds you with fog" seems to me like a fundamental contradiction in the advice we are given that you may have faced. And solving that contradiction was your path to fundamental improvement.

Maybe, just maybe, noticing these contradictions in advice could be a really helpful technique for many if not all of us here. Because it helps us become more self-aware and it kind of points to a solution:

For example, "right now I don't have the capacity to work my stuff out, so I need a bit of fog." A bit of fog turns out to be a relief (indeed it is used on the battlefield all the time to save lives in the form of concealing smoke). And then we move forward, without need of the fog.

 

[Applecore]

Experience & boundaries.

…has anyone ever refused to ring up your groceries to detail how they were anally raped? Is that what you EXPECT when you go to buy cereal & oranges for breakfast? Or is that a bizarre & strange experience, that you do NOT EXPECT when you’re trying to buy food?

That's certainly a lesson about over-sharing versus under-sharing, which years ago I had to learn myself.

At first I didn't talk about the all the trauma in my life, and wasn't doing well. Then out of desperation, believing the dogma that telling our story is a good thing, there came a time when I used to tell people about a suicide in my family very early on in getting to know them.

Like once, on a second date (although that was probably my sabotage because she would clearly have been a bad influence, she was evidently a full blown alcoholic with the shakes).

But with one of my best friends, I waited years to tell him; his appalling response was one of the reasons I ended the friendship. I went into therapy to tell the whole story and the therapist told me he "didn't know what to say" - i.e. he was unable to cope with my story.

Most people just can't handle that level of intensity right away, if ever, and so I went back to not talking about it. Fortunately my trauma doesn't bug me as much as it used to, although there are several factors to thank for that.

You are right that it may be that we need to go through the experience in order to set the boundaries. Full visibility may require a walk-through.

 

[Applecore]

my own approach to this conundrum is to be aware, open and honest about my own limitations. i am human and a multiply certified nutjob, to boot. when i am feeling my limitations, i am not likely to have effective support to give. letting the person i am attempting to support know i am at my limit can give me the opportunity to ply self-care while leaving the door open to future dialog.

for what it's worth

methinks this approach might be easier for me than for your average bear. my hearing impairment is the perfect excuse for not listening to quixotic (or whateveric) drivel. phone-phobe here. don't bother calling. text only.

Excellent approach. It's in keeping with the wisdom out there that recommends saying e.g. "I feel overwhelmed," instead of "you are overwhelming." I often fail at that and hope to adjust.

I think it will be easier when I keep front of mind that it's in my own best interests to confess limitations. It's a good, pro-modesty and counter-narcissism practice in that it undermines the assumption that we are always capable. And a brilliant way of de-escalating from someone who is more in need that we are able to provide for.

 

[Applecore]

@barefoot

You wrote:

"But if we do get stuck in negativity, pessimism, complaining etc..,I guess I’d be curious about why. What’s underlying that? A critical ‘don’t be negative!’ or ‘you’re being really self-indulgent - stop it!) without exploring and addressing where those thoughts feelings and behaviours are coming from, are not very helpful, I don’t think."

The possible reasons why are a very long story starting in childhood, much of it explained over at: Don't know how to help a friend, ideas welcome

I made the mistake of giving her a critical ‘don’t be negative!’ or ‘you’re being really self-indulgent - stop it!' That's because I lost my patience with her after she chose to do another knowingly self-defeating action, which I pleaded her not to do, and that she then complained to me about doing. She keeps making things worse for herself; but instead of telling her that, I could have simply said I feel overwhelmed by the immensity of her problems.

She is facing the contradictory advice of taking small steps at improvement versus doing nothing and having a rest (after four years of little employment and endless attempts at treatment which all fail). Trouble is, most initiatives she tries seem to make things worse.

The most recent one was that some psycho took advantage of her state, and physically attacked her while invading her home (as detailed in my other threads). So she thought it would be a good initiative to stand up for herself (per the common advice) and sue him. Turns out to have been a huge mistake, partly because he is a lawyer. It's completely breaking her and she believes she is headed for the dreaded psych ward, which is like jail in this country.

She's pretty dysfunctional, often what she calls "catatonic", with neurological, endocrine and other bodily problems more than just mental health issues. I feel the way she sometimes talks to me is a scream for help amid her despair and terror, like a melt down on the front line of battle.

Years ago when I did that in my life people did tell me to shut the f*ck up because I am making things worse. I listened. I want to resist my occasional urge to tell her the same thing even though it may have helped me.

 

[arfie]

I think it will be easier when I keep front of mind that it's in my own best interests to confess limitations.

more and more, i believe --just believing-- that this is in EVERYONE's best interest. on my best days, my mind reading skills suck. i cannot KNOW what another person feels or thinks. i can barely keep up with my own thoughts and feelings. compassionately acting in my own best interest is my best shot at guessing right.

for what it's worth
when i attempt to act in another person's best interest, "polite-offs" are the most typical result. they don't want to hurt me any more than i want to hurt them, so we dance around the truth like polite liars. to my mind, a lie of omission remains a lie. "i'm tired" is both honest and direct.

another fwiw
i have gotten great mileage out of "grammar therapy." how i say things counts. minding my pronouns and reframing my words carries allot of healing mojo for me, but then. . . i'm a multi-lingial language freak.