Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder: The Choice To Remain Ill Or Not?

[zeldazonk]

in some instances, you can have people just as bad with and without complex trauma, because they want to remain ill, or aren't ready to listen to someone, trust someone, to push them beyond there own denial.

Hi Anthony,
I have a bit of a problem with the way you put this. I've come across similar comments from you elsewhere and they leave a bad taste in my mouth.
I really think that, the majority of the time, people are doing the best they can. Often, we can't understand why someone stays so stuck / sick when the path seems so clear from the outside.

We are such complex animals and so mysterious even to ourselves - I always try to think how impossible it would be for someone else to really understand why and how I've been so unwell for so long before I judge someone else for "not working hard enough" or "not having very much insight".

In my conscious mind, I understand quite a bit about PTSD, DDNOS etc, yet I am still living with constant dysphoria, serious depression, hyper-arousal, lack of pleasure, dissociation, numbing, a fragmented identity, violent rages etc etc and have been for the last 24 years.
Aren't we limited as far as what we can do with all our unconscious stuff? I don't remember much of what got me here in the first place.
Do I want to remain ill? I don't think so, although I'm sure there is some part of me that feels comfortable with it.

Anyway, you get my drift...
Best, Zel.

 

[anthony]

I really think that, the majority of the time, people are doing the best they can. Often, we can't understand why someone stays so stuck / sick when the path seems so clear from the outside.

What I find more interesting here Zelda, is that you have taken this and applied it to yourself, but not only that, also applied it to others, "people are doing the best they can". How do you know that? An actual tell-tail sign of someone who won't take acceptance, is they talk about their trauma, and use the words to assign things to others, just like you have in your statement, using "we" and "people" and "they" and "someone", etc. There is no mention of "I" or "me", self statements, which subconsciously show acceptance or denial of your own self in relation to your trauma.

Have you ever attended and watched a rape group where you have women who have been attending for 20 years, and they're still stuck? Actually, they are given the same advice everyone else has been given, but they have chosen to keep hold of their trauma, they don't want to let it go. I have... and it doesn't matter what anyone says to these select few, they just want to remain ill.

I had a good mate like that, and last time I checked last year, he was still the same. I have gone forward over the last 7 years, as have most of my colleagues who endured the same trauma, he refuses to stop the bad habits, the behaviour, to even try. He refuses to attend a course, they are all garbage to him. He refuses there is an issue that he must accept and work hard upon, to actively engage positive behaviours over negative.

Then I have another friend who can't let go of the military. He has been discharged for years, still holds onto it like he is part of it, even acts part of it at times, tells soldiers to put hats on, etc, when in shopping centers, when he doesn't even have any authority or rank any more. He refuses to move on and accept the reality of where his life is, where it can be, instead he wants to remain in a fantasy that he has built for himself.

Denial is a wonderfully dangerous thing, and everyone with PTSD will go through it initially.

You can apply this to people as simple as AA... 20 years on and they're still in an AA meeting, stuck. They won't make a choice to let go and walk a path, make a path for themselves, and accept their behaviour. Instead they need to be recognised and part of something that is destructive after a certain point of healing, yet deny that, and refuse to let go.

We are such complex animals and so mysterious even to ourselves

As mentioned above...

I always try to think how impossible it would be for someone else to really understand why and how I've been so unwell for so long before I judge someone else for "not working hard enough" or "not having very much insight".

And here you use "I" and self claiming words when you discuss being ill. Sorry, but this is a dangerous rationale you are playing with here, especially as you self accept being ill, yet use generic words to shift any type of acceptance towards healing and progress as more group and third parties.

In my conscious mind, I understand quite a bit about PTSD, DDNOS etc, yet I am still living with constant dysphoria, serious depression, hyper-arousal, lack of pleasure, dissociation, numbing, a fragmented identity, violent rages etc etc and have been for the last 24 years.

Again, self acceptance only to assign what is wrong with you. Watch how you subconsciously are referring again in the next sentence when it comes to methodology!

Aren't we limited as far as what we can do with all our unconscious stuff?

Do I want to remain ill? I don't think so, although I'm sure there is some part of me that feels comfortable with it.

You accepted your own question, with a possible, then completely admitted that you are also comfortable with it. Someone typically who wants to get better, really wants to put in a huge effort, go beyond their mental and physical limitations, they will use words and statements more like, "I am going to get better" and "I will beat this thing" and "I am going to improve x in my life". These are doing statements vs. your hesitation statement.

I am not trying to offend you Zelda, but I am answering your reply. There is no trauma that is that significant that you cannot make an active choice to implicitly implement significant change within your life. Doing vs. thinking. Learning is lovely, but its also useless unless you turn that learning into doing. Theory must be followed by an act, before theory can be confirmed within the brain.

 

[zeldazonk]

What I find more interesting here Zelda, is that you have taken this and applied it to yourself, but not only that, also applied it to others,

Yeeeah....

"people are doing the best they can". How do you know that?

From observing myself and others for years and being an empathetic person.

An actual tell-tail sign of someone who won't take acceptance, is they talk about their trauma, and use the words to assign things to others, just like you have in your statement, using "we" and "people" and "they" and "someone", etc. There is no mention of "I" or "me", self statements, which subconsciously show acceptance or denial of your own self in relation to your trauma.

"Use I statements please Zel"
I was speaking about 'people' because you were: "but in some instances, you can have people just as bad with and without complex trauma, because they want to remain ill, or aren't ready to listen to someone, trust someone, to push them beyond there (sp) own denial."

Am I supposed to feel 'less than' because I find my abuse (which I barely remember) hard to accept?

Have you ever attended and watched a rape group where you have women who have been attending for 20 years, and they're still stuck? Actually, they are given the same advice everyone else has been given, but they have chosen to keep hold of their trauma, they don't want to let it go. I have... and it doesn't matter what anyone says to these select few, they just want to remain ill.

They have chosen...
This reminds me of a 1st year social work student in my sister-in-law's indigenous studies lecture who felt that indigenous people really should stop their whinging and "get on with it". After all, it was their own choices that got them where they are in the first place.
(I am not necessarily comparing indigenous people & there struggles with PTSD sufferers)
The big problem with this thinking is that it implies that everyone starts with the same equipment from the same starting line which is of course, nonsense. PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT CAPACITIES due to a myriad of different elements - genes, environment etc.

They just want to remain ill...

How the f*ck do you know?
Anthony, you are obviously an intelligent person. Do you really think that if you give the same advice to a group of people, they will all be able to follow it with the same success?
If you plant 10 seeds in the same conditions and fertilise and water them exactly the same, do you end up with 10 identically healthy plants? No. Human beings are insanely more complex than plants.

I had a good mate like that, and last time I checked last year, he was still the same. I have gone forward over the last 7 years, as have most of my colleagues who endured the same trauma, he refuses to stop the bad habits, the behaviour, to even try. He refuses to attend a course, they are all garbage to him. He refuses there is an issue that he must accept and work hard upon, to actively engage positive behaviours over negative.

Then I have another friend who can't let go of the military. He has been discharged for years, still holds onto it like he is part of it, even acts part of it at times, tells soldiers to put hats on, etc, when in shopping centers, when he doesn't even have any authority or rank any more. He refuses to move on and accept the reality of where his life is, where it can be, instead he wants to remain in a fantasy that he has built for himself.

I think maybe your defence against this unpredictable and sometimes frightening world is that you have made these great steps in recovery. Action. You feel powerful that way and that is great. I really mean it. I think maybe you need to soften your heart a bit when it comes to human frailty. Not everyone is so successful. People are different. For one person deciding to stop drinking alcohol is a relatively easy change to make, for another it is nigh on impossible. The way you see things isn't the same way others see / experience things. I know you're thinking "she's just making excuses coz she wants to stay in denial and stay ill".
All I can say is that I'm actually quite hard on myself. I push myself to do what I think I need to to get better although, sometimes, I admit, I lose faith and feel very lost.

Denial is a wonderfully dangerous thing, and everyone with PTSD will go through it initially.

Yep. Battling denial a lot. I find it hard when memories are scarce.
My whole problem is the punitive way you talk about people like me who are struggling long term with issues like denial.

And here you use "I" and self claiming words when you discuss being ill. Sorry, but this is a dangerous rationale you are playing with here, especially as you self accept being ill, yet use generic words to shift any type of acceptance towards healing and progress as more group and third parties.

Sorry, I actually don't know what you mean here.

Again, self acceptance only to assign what is wrong with you. Watch how you subconsciously are referring again in the next sentence when it comes to methodology!

Yes, because I'm going from talking about my personal story to that of the human experience.
I'm a bit of a philosopher in my own lounge room - I'm always theorising about the species as a whole.
I think you've got the wrong take with the whole lack of "I statements" thing. I do understand that. I'm an ex 12-stepper.

You accepted your own question, with a possible, then completely admitted that you are also comfortable with it. Someone typically who wants to get better, really wants to put in a huge effort, go beyond their mental and physical limitations, they will use words and statements more like, "I am going to get better" and "I will beat this thing" and "I am going to improve x in my life". These are doing statements vs. your hesitation statement.

Yes. Of course part of me is comfortable with it. I've not known anything else. How could I not be?
If you want to hear a bunch of affirmations instead of my honest thoughts / feelings I don't know what to say to you. Sorry I don't live up to your militaristic expectations.

Best, Zel.

 

[Brontie]

I’m off to check my posts for how many ‘we, they and them’ lol!

Good post. Food for thought. Makes us stop and think and take stock and ask ourselves are we really moving forward or do we just think we are. Of course I like to think I have made loads of progress but how do we know for sure? I have a psych-doc appointment coming up, I don’t know why but it brings me down quite a bit. I often think about cancelling it but then I think what if I’m not doing as well as I think I am.

 

[zeldazonk]

Just one more little thing.
Something I've learned in life is that things we feel proud of are often a product of good luck / karma.

A frivolous example is: I saw Gwyneth Paltrow on Oprah talking about her great new 'body after baby' and how she'd achieved it with exercise etc - I'm not denying she worked hard. What really gave me the sh8ts especially on behalf of the larger ladies in the audience was that she forgot to mention she was born that way.

I've always been really good at moderation with food and alcohol and I have loved ones who really struggle with it. I always remind myself that I am lucky to have that in my nature. It's not so hard for me as it is for them.
I guess I'm suggesting, Anthony, that you could feel fortunate instead of superior regarding your ongoing recovery.
I am not suggesting for a minute that it fell into your lap or that you are not working your butt off for it.
It's just foolish to think that because you got to the top of the mountain by following ABC, so too should everyone else and if they don't, there's something wrong with them.

Best, Zel.

 

[Iam]

I don't know why, but this whole discussion above bothers me. I guess it is confrontational, which maybe is necessary in overcoming denial

I certainly went thru denial in even accepting that I had PTSD, then denial about some of the things that actually happened to me. I still vacillate at times. Denial seems to be a part of PTSD that I, and probably everybody with PTSD, have to fight against. Do I want to get well? ABSOLUTELY! Even so it is a process and what is working for me might not work for another. The pace that I go at may be slow or faster than others too, but I think the process is probably the same for each of us.

There are certain stages that I think all of us have to go thru. For example there are 7 stages in working thru grief. It would be interesting to find out what the stages are for learning to cope with PTSD. Denial, anger, grief, acceptance and hope come to mind. I seem to go thru all of these stages as my T and I approach different traumas and sometimes the different aspects of each trauma itself. I am not saying that each trauma has to be worked thru individually as I have found that there is a common thread of "dysfunctional thinking" on my part in all of my traumas. The process always seems to be the same, only the speed of going thru each differs.

 

[Abstract]

What really gave me the sh8ts especially on behalf of the larger ladies in the audience was that she forgot to mention she was born that way.
Best, Zel.

Hi Zelda! I hope this is not taking this a little off topic (I don't feel it is as it is as ED's are a fairly common occurance in those with complex trauma and it also relates to the general points here made about recovery). It is just a part of this that I do know a lot about and therfore feel more able to comment on.

I have had an eating disorder for over thirty years and am now in very strong recovery. As much as I hate societies obsession and narrowness about body image (believe me!) I personally don't believe there is anything wrong with Gweneth Paltrow saying how she got her "body back" after pregnancy. Her doing what she does in her life is not automaitcally a comment on others in my humble opinion. She may or may not have it easy but that does not mean it somehow relates to others.

I think there a mass of reasons why others may not be able to (and I don't mean to imply they have eating disorders!) but am afraid I dont believe it is genetic and that is just how it is. People are bigger or smaller mostly because of lifestyle and what they consume. I don't mean that in a judgmental way at all - you have no idea how strongly I feel that peoples size is not important.
But saying that this is how they are born basically takes away personal choice in a way. I am strong on personal choice as it is empowering.:)

Yes people may not start off on a level playing field. Many who have weight problems are sure to have powerful psychological influences in some way but they CAN still have a healthier life if they are unhealthy or get better if they have a touch or more of eating disorder influence on their lives. No matter how difficult it may be to do so.

In working on our healing we can choose to do what we have to do, even if it is much harder for us than someone else.
It may be slower and more difficult. I suspect that very early trauma is sure to be particularly difficult as it affects personality development and the ability to feel confident about things changing.:( But it is still possible.

Trying to recover from an ED was terribly difficult. And I did not really move forward for a very long time. Do I deserve to be judged for that? Certainly not! Would it have been different if I had engaged in recovery in a different way? I am sure it would have been!
Why was I not able to? There were many reasons that directly linked to past trauma and others that were to do treatment offered me or decisions I made.
But I still had free will.

There is a big difference between judging someone for being stuck and actually saying that it does not have to be that way.
That choosing not to use skills and choosing not to get treatment is a sure way of staying ill.

Anthony said, "but in some instances, you can have people just as bad with and without complex trauma, because they want to remain ill, or aren't ready to listen to someone, trust someone, to push them beyond there own denial. "
I don't see this as a judgment. It is actually empowering in a way in my opinion. It means that if someone is able to start engaging in recovery in a true way that things can improve.

Yes, there may be reasons why someone does not trust; are not ready to listen to someone or are still in denial. Important reasons. There is no judgment of that but it absolutely will keep people ill! And maybe more ill than someone else who may have experienced less trauma but for whatever reason (and there could be many) is able to engage in recovery.

Maybe the soldier who refuses to have treatment does so because of life influences and his parenting but he is not likely to improve unless he changes!

I wish you healing and apologise for the long post.

 

[zeldazonk]

I personally don't believe there is anything wrong with Gweneth Paltrow saying how she got her "body back" after pregnancy. Her doing what she does in her life is not automaitcally a comment on others in my humble opinion. She may or may not have it easy but that does not mean it somehow relates to others.

I don't think there's anything wrong with it per se but you know what those Oprah shows are like - worshipful squealing all the time. The whole tone of the show was one of instruction - how you can do this too. In an ideal world it might not relate to others and Oprah and everyone would say the politically correct thing - how it doesn't matter what size you are blah blah blah. But I'm sorry, the subtext in my mind is clearly: this is something to aspire to. This is beauty and virtue rolled into one. And that's my point - Gwyneth (got nothing against her) has not had to do too much at all to be this thing that so many women aspire to, and I think if I was in her position I'd mention that.

I suspect that very early trauma is sure to be particularly difficult as it affects personality development and the ability to feel confident about things changing.:( But it is still possible.

Yep, not having a formed identity in the first place sure does complicate things.

I think there a mass of reasons why others may not be able to (and I don't mean to imply they have eating disorders!) but am afraid I dont believe it is genetic and that is just how it is.

I totally disagree. I think it's both, but that genes play a huge role.

Trying to recover from an ED was terribly difficult. And I did not really move forward for a very long time. Do I deserve to be judged for that? Certainly not! Would it have been different if I had engaged in recovery in a different way? I am sure it would have been!
Why was I not able to? There were many reasons that directly linked to past trauma and others that were to do treatment offered me or decisions I made.
But I still had free will.

Yes you had free will and you could only work with what you had at the time as you put so well above.

There is a big difference between judging someone for being stuck and actually saying that it does not have to be that way.
That choosing not to use skills and choosing not to get treatment is a sure way of staying ill.

Anthony said, "but in some instances, you can have people just as bad with and without complex trauma, because they want to remain ill, or aren't ready to listen to someone, trust someone, to push them beyond there own denial. "
I don't see this as a judgment. It is actually empowering in a way in my opinion. It means that if someone is able to start engaging in recovery in a true way that things can improve.

Suggesting that someone remains ill because they want to - to me - sounds patronising and punitive and not very insightful..
All things being equal no-one would choose to remain ill.

Yes, there may be reasons why someone does not trust; are not ready to listen to someone or are still in denial. Important reasons. There is no judgment of that but it absolutely will keep people ill! And maybe more ill than someone else who may have experienced less trauma but for whatever reason (and there could be many) is able to engage in recovery.

Totally agree

I wish you healing and apologise for the long post.

Thank you Abstract. All the best to you too.

 

[anthony]

Zelda, I think you have interpreted an outcome, and accepted that outcome. Simple as that. There is no power here, there is no militaristic view, there is choice. I chose to get better... that choice is actually yours, contrary to what you outline towards more having a little pity party that you are trying so hard, yet attempting to also degrade / attack me in the process.

Zelda... your choice, do as you wish. When you want to get better, feel free to come see me and cut all the sympthetic nonsense please, because from your own admission, it has gotten you as far as you are, and stuck, using your words.

Healing anything is about taking power, taking control of, wait for it.... your life.

It actually has nothing to do with me or another.... it is in fact all about you, so please stop trying to shift it elsewhere and take responsibility for your actions, and use that responsibility to actually achieve, instead of just giving up.

Take care.

 

[Nicolette]

Suggesting that someone remains ill because they want to - to me - sounds patronising and punitive and not very insightful..
All things being equal no-one would choose to remain ill.

Totally disagree and have seen it first hand in my own family. It is easier for some people to stay stuck or ill than go through the hard work of getting better. It's like taking the easy road or the hard road. Don't say I blame the person I know who remains ill but I ended up walking away from trying to help her as, despite what came out of her mouth, her actions were opposite.

Why should I take on someone ringing me up suicidal asking for help but takes NONE of it on board :confused: - game over sorry, otherwise I end up a mess too.:eek:

 

[Iam]

Totally disagree and have seen it first hand in my own family.
Why should I take on someone ringing me up suicidal asking for help but takes NONE of it on board :confused: - game over sorry, otherwise I end up a mess too.:eek:

So have I Nicolette as you well know and it is a choice. I pity her, I am sorry that she is unwilling to go thru the hard work and pain to get better. I don't think she realizes how truly sick she is though or that she could have a better life. So sad.

 

[Brontie]

I know people who think therapy sounds too much like hard work, and they are alone. They are alone because they are not prepared to listen to anyone, and others have got tired of listening to them. To be fair, I think most of us start out like that because we are afraid to face the truth. But eventually we realise that we can’t do it alone and that we have to let someone in. For a lot of people, especially those dealing with past abuse, this can be very difficult indeed. But it’s the only way to get well. Insist on doing it alone and all you are doing is treating a sick mind with a sick mind and wondering why you are not getting well. I learned this lesson the hard way.