Undiagnosed Ptsd From Spouses Affair

[anthony]

You're looking at only the diagnostic criterion. Criterion does not make diagnosis. Diagnosis encompasses so much more than what is listed under specific criterion posted upon the web. Get the actual DSM IV and read some relevant sections in it. A diagnosis contains a lot of other literature, which isn't published online. Diagnosis is not simply a checklist occurrence, as you're making it out.

You, nor I, nor others, get to start choosing words to try and fit things within a diagnosis. That is the very issue with mental health diagnosis at present, in which the APA and WHO are trying to rectify. It is ignorant to assume a simple checklist approach, which is how so many self-diagnose today, incorrectly.

Someone wanting to kill themselves is not PTSD. That is depression. You can't look at the outcome, you look at the cause. The cause is where physicians look. That is how they assign relevant categorisation to a person for the correct diagnosis. They don't take all the information, then try and fit them into a whole range of diagnoses. They take the information, determine the underlying attributes, then attempt to find the most relevant diagnosis that meets the primary concern.

A person trying to kill themselves, is 99.9% of the time due to depression. Hence, the primary concern.

You need to go learn more about diagnosis before you attempt to fit things within them, especially as most diagnostic criterions overlap. There is more to diagnosis than simply reading some diagnostic criterion online.

 

[anthony]

Oh... and if you don't have the DSM, you can review one from your local library. That will give you greater insight into diagnosis before you attempt to use diagnostic criterion again as an argument. You will quickly learn from the complete information that what you're saying is far from accurate.

I once thought just like you, that reading some diagnosis was all there was to it. How wrong I was once reading the DSM and other psychological literature that is part of diagnostic education and requirements, yet not contained online. You need to look in psychology texts and diagnostic texts for the complete picture.

Added: As for suicide attempts, I haven't read any recent literature from anyone with authority in PTSD, Van Der Kolk being such a person as cited, that suicide should be included as a PTSD stressor or traumatic event.

The only data on that is when the suicide is external, ie. your loved one or such, which is already used and accepted as an abnormally traumatic event.

Committing suicide yourself, I've never read that from any authority in PTSD, that that should be acceptable for meeting PTSD criterion A. If the person has 'underlying' traumatic events within their life that led them to attempt suicide, then PTSD if diagnosed is not done so because of the attempted suicide, but the 'underlying' abnormally traumatic events that pushed the person to the act.

 

[Shellbell]

Every bit of combat a US military person has seen for forty years is by choice. Are you also saying that soldiers are now immune from PTSD and all of the diagnoses are false? I don't think so. Please point me to the literature that says that.

We're talking about suicide here and combat soldiers are being exposed to other people's deaths, not taking their own life.

 

[Shellbell]

Added: As for suicide attempts, I haven't read any recent literature from anyone with authority in PTSD, Van Der Kolk being such a person as cited, that suicide should be included as a PTSD stressor or traumatic event.

The only data on that is when the suicide is external, ie. your loved one or such, which is already used and accepted as an abnormally traumatic event.

Committing suicide yourself, I've never read that from any authority in PTSD, that that should be acceptable for meeting PTSD criterion A. If the person has 'underlying' traumatic events within their life that led them to attempt suicide, then PTSD if diagnosed is not done so because of the attempted suicide, but the 'underlying' abnormally traumatic events that pushed the person to the act.

I have no doubt not read anywhere near as much as you Anthony, but have still not read anywhere that suicide alone be included as a PTSD diagnostic criterion.

 

[matthios]

It is ignorant to assume a simple checklist approach, which is how so many self-diagnose today, incorrectly.

And that is exactly what is going on here: those who are not this man's physicians are UNDIAGNOSING him based on assumptions they're making about unknown information.

Self-diagnosing does not apply here. This man did not diagnose himself.

A person trying to kill themselves, is 99.9% of the time due to depression.

This is simply and factually untrue. I realize you're using hyperbole to make your point, but it's fundamentally wrong nonetheless. And... based on making assumptions!

You need to go learn more about diagnosis before you attempt to fit things within them, especially as most diagnostic criterions overlap. There is more to diagnosis than simply reading some diagnostic criterion online.

"Dear pot." "Yes, kettle?" "You're black."

Absolutely, such as actually interviewing the patient and finding out more details. Yet, you are diagnosing depression as the cause of suicide in a hypothetical case. In fact, in 99.9% of real cases (perhaps as well as the remaining .1%), you are overriding countless doctors. You know, the people with degrees and certifications and research experience and clinical practice and and and...

You are ruling out a diagnosis made by licensed medical professionals who have seen this man in person as their legal patient. The same doctors who have consulted "the literature" as well as years of professional practice.

Clearly this is your forum. A lot of what you've posted is sound. But not all of it. You're a tremendous resource but you're not THE source. You don't decide who does and does not have PTSD. You do not decide what PTSD is. You do not decide what the medical community has accepted as diagnostic criteria (the plural of criterion is criteria. hooray greek neuters)

I, and the OP, joined the PTSDforum, nominally and explicitly a forum for those with PTSD and those supporting them. It is not the "come here to be invalidated and un-diagnosed by self-proclaimed unlicensed non-professionals" forum. If it is? perhaps a new URL is in order.

 

[matthios]

As for suicide attempts, I haven't read any recent literature from anyone with authority in PTSD, Van Der Kolk being such a person as cited, that suicide should be included as a PTSD stressor or traumatic event.

Has anyone in "recent literature" stated that PTSD should be excluded as a PTSD-certified traumatic event?

abnormally traumatic event.

Please define this phrase. Your use suggests it's commonplace in "the literature" but I've yet to see it used, let alone defined.

read anywhere that suicide alone be included as a PTSD diagnostic criterion.

Who said anything about alone? Clearly, successful suicides result in death with zero chance for PTSD.

We're talking about suicide here and combat soldiers are being exposed to other people's deaths, not taking their own life.

Actually, you were saying that the trauma had to be due to something beyond a person's choice. Combat soldiers are exposed to the deaths of others that they themselves chose to facilitate. They are put in a situation wherein their own lives are threatened... because? that's right- they CHOSE to be there.

Adults (arguably even minors) in recurring domestic abuse situations choose to stay in abusive situations after the first abuse. Are you also saying that these people are also on the chopping block for having their diagnoses retracted?

I find it interesting that even the metanoia site has a page dedicated to PTSD as a consequence of one's own suicidality.

I've still yet to see or see listed a single reference which excludes a suicide attempt as a "certified" trauma resulting in PTSD.

 

[Shellbell]

Matthios, no-one is trying to minimise how devastating a divorce from an affair and feeling suicidal as a result is. I've been there and it is devastating.

A divorce is not life threatening. Learning of an affair is not life threatening. Suicide is, but a choice the person makes I believe due to severe depression. We could be here forever arguing every possible trauma and outcome.

You can have PTSD and not be suicidal. PTSD does not always include suicidal thoughts. I believe it is depression that causes the suicidal thoughts, particularly in situation of an divorce/affair. And yes that is just my opinion.

 

[matthios]

And yes that is just my opinion.

Yes.

 

[Nicolette]

Hang on a second, there are no 'countless' doctors in this specific situation for starters.

Secondly, doctors can get it wrong too - I just had surgery and 5 doctors correctly diagnosed a heart condition but it turns out they were incorrect in the actual condition. Right area, right symptoms but slightly off with the actual condition. So doctors aren't the absolute be all or end all in relation to diagnosis.

I have suffered life threatening trauma and 2 specialists said they'd prefer not to label me, an other said I have PTSD, another sits on the fence. So again a doctor's diagnosis may not always be set in stone.

Having being cheated on and life as I know it changing, all that I believed to be true, and the devastation that brings it does not constitute life threatening as said on the first page; it is life altering. If you found that so devastating to want to commit suicide I believe that to be an inability to cope with change and betrayal - not life threatening trauma.

 

[Shellbell]

Having being cheated on and life as I know it changing, all that I believed to be true, and the devastation that brings it does not constitute life threatening as said on the first page; it is life altering. If you found that so devastating to want to commit suicide I believe that to be an inability to cope with change and betrayal - not life threatening trauma.

This is exactly what I was trying to think to say but couldn't think of the right words.

 

[matthios]

'countless' doctors in this specific situation

The specific situation was "all suicides". I would have to go with "countless" to describe the number of of doctors in all of history who have ever made diagnoses concerning all of the suicides in history.

Secondly, doctors can get it wrong too

Absolutely. The question is: who do we allow to make legal diagnoses- doctors or gas station attendants? (or really any other unlicensed non-professional). I'm fairly certain it's doctors... I am the last person to advocate doctor worship. Doctors get it wrong, but I'd like to think they get it wrong statistically less often than a non-doctor does.

I have suffered life threatening trauma and 2 specialists said they'd prefer not to label me, an other said I have PTSD, another sits on the fence. So again a doctor's diagnosis may not always be set in stone.

Totally valid. Two doctors didn't give you a diagnosis, nor did they take one away. They preferred not to diagnose lest it cause more harm than good (be it for their own professional liability sake or yours, who knows). One diagnosed you. You have one diagnosis and no doctors saying "this is absolutely not PTSD." I've had three doctors diagnose (or rather, one to diagnose, one to confirm... a third to re-diagnose with a new trauma, and the original to confirm the "new" same-ole diagnosis.) I've seen plenty of other doctors and not a one has taken my diagnosis away from me. But we're not talking about doctors undiagnosing patients... we're talking about non-doctors on the internet undiagnosing non-patients...

not life threatening trauma.

I've never suggested having a spouse cheat is a life threatening trauma. I've said a suicide attempt is a life threatening trauma. It is, by definition, both life-threatening AND trauma. Many have argued that mere suicidal ideation is both life-threatening AND trauma. It's certainly far scarier and more damaging than anything your parents will say to you...

If you compound whatever the attempt itself was with the likely events to follow (intubation, hospitalization, administration of meds, possible drug interactions producing further life-threatening situations, being dropped by paramedics resulting in further bodily harm and complicating survival, etc). All of these things can occur immediately following a suicide attempt. (clearly we're not talking successful suicides). I could be mistaken as I've never seen a hard statistic for this, but I seem to remembering seeing that most suicide attempts which result in medical treatment are reported by the attempter who has now decided he or she wants to live and needs help. (i.e., the brain has kicked into survival mode)

Apparently the recurrent thought around here is that "suicide=depression." This isn't factual. People can claim it "opinion" until faces are thoroughly blue, but it is not, and never will be, fact.

What does matter is that experiencing trauma dramatically increases the chances for suicide.
"Studies also suggest that suicide risk is higher in persons with PTSD. For example, research has found that trauma survivors with PTSD have a significantly higher risk of suicide than trauma survivors diagnosed with other psychiatric illness or with no mental pathology (9)." (from Link Removed )

Isn't it funny that the VA is stating that trauma survivors have an increase of risk. (And that trauma survivors who ALSO have PTSD but DO NOT have "other psychiatric illness", which, you know, includes depression... are at a "signficantly higher risk.)

 

[Nicolette]

Anyone else suffer this hell from a spouse’s affair, and has anything helped stop your PTSD caused from it?

How this became about suicide is beyond me as the question at hand was an affair being the cause of PTSD.