Criterion A, Loopholes And Denial.

[Fire329]

Ok, so I'm new here and hopefully you will excuse my approach, but I am a very direct person. Sorry if that offends anyone, but that is how I was brought up / trained.

First, I will admit I don't know your whole story, but I was thrilled to know what was wrong with me. I was glad I wasn't the only one who felt the way I do.

Secondly, again not knowing your background, I fell Criterion A is pretty clear. In my case, I was working on a juvenile female, who had been thrown from the middle seat of a mini-van, out the rear window, and over the ditch to the crop row. I know she didn't walk there as her legs were not pointing the way they should have been. Unfortunately she did not survive her injuries.

I, therefore, was confronted with and witnessed actual death. I was there, I saw it. I was a part of the event. I was confronted with it when I arrived on scene of the accident.

Since I've met 1 & 2, I'm not worried about 3 or 4. One only has to meet 1 of these. On #5, there are parts of this response that I don't remember. I did things, went places, talked to people and have no recall of any of it. There is no "and" in the criterion. You can have fear OR helplessness OR horror. One is good enough in my book.

If the abuse is verbal / emotional and there was fear for your physical being, and you felt helpless to do anything about it, that may be good enough. I'm no Dr. but that is how I see this.

Again, if I'm too blunt or direct, I'm sorry.

 

[Tinyflame]

Forgive me Abstract, I can't absorb all these posts for now and perhaps this has been said (and more eloquently), as regards Criterion A. I recall as a small child feeling quite confident taking care of myself. Whether that included dissociation, who knows? Irregardless, I have never felt that I was 'entitled' to clasify anything as traumatic. However, unlike things that are truly non-traumatic, it was more of a 'pushing them out of my headspace'. I look now however at little children the same age, and no matter what, no matter how intelligent or resourceful they may be, they don't have the means or the resources or power to affect change or keep themselves safe, or deal alone with grief, fear, trauma, lack of solidity or predictability, pain or even problems. Perhaps at some level we always knew that as children, and pushed the reality away while living in it. Too painful and frightening to acknowledge it.

((((Hugs))))

 

[DharmaGirl]

I hope you will forgive me if I miss the meaning you are trying to get across. I struggle with reading the posts and getting the general meaning sometimes.

I have often heard members say PTSD is about death

I think it can be about death, but not always. My parents would fight, and around age four I would get up and see what they were fighting about. My mom would tell be to go down to the neighbors and have them call the police. My dad said he would kill my mom if I did. My little 4 year old self would freeze. I truly believed he would kill her. He didn't on any of those occasions but I was sure he would. Thus PTSD. Just because my little girl mind didn't realize it was just something people said.

I have thought of myself as tough, rational and resilient and it hurts to see that that may not be true at all.

I'm sure you have been tough, rational, and resilient or you would not present as such an intelligent person who has it under control. It is a coping mechanism that I have used most of my life too. If you don't think of yourself as tough, how do you get through this?

I have not had the truly horrid stuff that I believe you have

But if you bounce off those doors, would you know? I got triggered at 51, and started having flashbacks. I had no idea that any trauma had occurred before then. If you are very young when the initial trauma occurs, you might never remember, but rather just have emotional flashbacks. I am stuck now and I am hoping to move forward but I remain stuck. It doesn't make you bad. You are not bad. You have helped so many on this forum. Many of us appreciate you so much, you have no idea. You work very hard at getting better. Maybe the answer is not in the details, but in the letting go of the details. If you use this time to continue to build up self-compassion, isn't that as important as knowing exactly what caused the PTSD?

When I was feeling distanced from my trauma, and didn't believe it, my therapist would ask me how I know my patients have a certain illness. Because of their symptoms. It didn't matter how or why, we would treat the illness anyway. I feel for what you are going through. Is there a part of you that can accept that trauma happened, and you feel disconnected to it? Maybe if you are willing to sit with that, it will gradually lessen.

 

[Abstract]

Hi Fire,

There is nothing wrong with being direct or blunt at all and I think you still consider others feelings. You did not run me down or attempt to undermine me and you merely gave your perspective on this and I appreciate that.

I think your story is very clear cut and I am glad you were able to move forward so well. And I am sorry that you witnessed something like that.

After so very many years of therapy I have been astounded in the last years to at last feel like am not an alien from the planet zog. It has been incredibly healing to at last have others who I can relate to. And it has meant I received the first therapy that felt as if it fitted me.

I wish it was that simple for me and that was that. I am not sure of the rest of your story but I suspect that when things happen when one is growing and still a child (without a fully developed personality) and when one copes by not being real and not seeing or "noticing" anything around one then it can be pretty difficult to have any sense of reality when all of a sudden opening ones eyes at age 40 +.

Most of the things that have happened to me I never reacted to at all. "A" happened then I carried on and that was that. I didn't for one minute stop to think about it. It was sectioned off behind a little steel door and that was that. Or not.

Please know that I am not criticising criterion A in this thread. I think the changes intended are very good but regardless both versions are perfectly fine. This is about me and nothing else.

If the abuse is verbal / emotional and there was fear for your physical being, and you felt helpless to do anything about it, that may be good enough. .

That is interesting so thank you for sharing.

 

[Abstract]

Dear Junebug,
There is nothing to forgive. I understand the difficulty.

However, unlike things that are truly non-traumatic, it was more of a 'pushing them out of my headspace'......no matter how intelligent or resourceful they may be, they don't have the means or the resources or power to affect change or keep themselves safe, or deal alone with grief, fear, trauma, lack of solidity or predictability, pain or even problems. Perhaps at some level we always knew that as children, and pushed the reality away while living in it. )

You bring up some interesting points.

When there is less noise in my head one of the things I can see is that truly non traumatic things dont take energy. They just are and that is that. Even if they are upsetting. I can now look back at one particular "thing" that I was adamant had no affect on me and see that regardless there is a lot of energy involved. In pushing it away. I recently had a very bad experience doing a mindfulness exercise and it has made me realise that I am always pushing away. Its exhausting.

And you are right that children don't have the means to deal with these things on their own. That actually hurts to say because I thought I was fine. But really I knew there was noone to go to and showing anything did not feel safe so maybe I made it go away.

Thanks.

 

[Abstract]

Hi Monster,

I was very touched by what you wrote. You are very sweet. Thank you.

I had no idea that any trauma had occurred before then.

Maybe the answer is not in the details, but in the letting go of the details.

When I was feeling distanced from my trauma, and didn't believe it, my therapist would ask me how I know my patients have a certain illness. Because of their symptoms. It didn't matter how or why, we would treat the illness anyway. I feel for what you are going through. Is there a part of you that can accept that trauma happened, and you feel disconnected to it? Maybe if you are willing to sit with that, it will gradually lessen.

May I ask if you literally did not remember it all or was it more that it was there but you never had access to it or "thought" of it and it did not belong to you? No pressure!

Its astonishing how one can live a life time and not realise these things isn't it? And you are probably right in that the longer the time without knowing and the more complete that not knowing the more strong those "skills" are and therefore maybe the more difficult to then stop/change. Some ways I respond feel like breathing for me and changing feels like stopping myself from breathing.

I suspect you are right about letting go being part of the solution. I just wish there was only one thing happening as I think it would be easier to make that judgement then.

You also brought up a big life line that I have used through this. Its the one thing that has given me some sense of purchase and direction through all the chaos. The symptoms. I have managed to just take steps whilst being convinced it is nothing to do with me by looking at this. When I can believe I have the symptoms it is. :O_o: Its peoples personal accounts that have helped the most. The recognition.

In the past there was no part of me that owned the events. Now there is a part of me that acknowledges them whilst still feeling they don't feel real. Whenever this aspect of me takes a step forward another side of me does all it can to destroy me. This part looks for things all the time to use to humiliate, undermine, invalidate and destroy me. That is the side of me that feels more removed. Out of my control.

But when I have taken steps to do what that side wants and get on with my life and leave all this nonsense alone then it seems the other side will not let me think I am OK and things get physical. I sound crazy and I have to say I believe I am often with this. I guess at least I can see it is all irrational and weird.

I hope things get better for you soon and I thank you for your compassion.

 

[Abstract]

Ps. And thank you for sharing about your mother. That actually helps me. I am sorry you were so afraid.

 

[Tinyflame]

I 'like' Monster's #52 post above, and relate so much. Whether or not the threat was literal danger (quite true) or perceived as literal (as a child). It was literal to the child, their perception. It's very difficult to be in a catch-22 as a child. Similarly Abstract it could be said not only not having someone to go to, or also choosing not to go to them, if it be perceived by the child as burdensome to the adults or the current situation(s), or betrayal of one, etc.

I relate Abstract to ignoring it doesn't make it go away. "If only".

When you're on the right track, I think treating the symptoms helps. But oh with ptsd, such a slow and painful and frightening process.

(((Dear Abstract))), ((((Dear Monster))), big hugs, xox.

 

[rainy_daze]

Thank you for the hugs and kindness Abstract. I am glad my contribution helped in some way, and posting here helped me too, I'm on a self awareness mission at the moment.

In the past there was no part of me that owned the events. Now there is a part of me that acknowledges them whilst still feeling they don't feel real. Whenever this aspect of me takes a step forward another side of me does all it can to destroy me. This part looks for things all the time to use to humiliate, undermine, invalidate and destroy me. That is the side of me that feels more removed. Out of my control.

You are so understanding towards other people on this thread, I hope you can learn to silence that part of you who dislikes you and wishes to destroy you, and give yourself the empathy you are giving others.

 

[DharmaGirl]

May I ask if you literally did not remember it all or was it more that it was there but you never had access to it or "thought" of it and it did not belong to you?

I remembered nothing. The first memory came back when I was 27. I was telling my mother how horrible it was that the 6 year old boy across the street had to come over to our house and have us call the police because his mom was getting beat up. She told me I use to do that when I was four. I remembered doing it then, but put it away. Now when I remember things, I can't own them for awhile. I tell my therapist, but I feel like I'm lying. I tell him that too. I just can't fit the abuse into my "picture" of my childhood. I decided that I would proceed as if they were true. Another thing that helps me believe is that when I talk about the abuse, my therapist says that my voice and demeanor dramatically change. Of course my first thought was that I was making it up but I wasn't aware of it. I think the decision to go forward even with the feelings of disbelief has allowed me to eventually believe.

Some memories are so clear and detailed. I know these are true. The ones that are associated with the pedophile ring (as I call it) are less believable to me even though I can feel some of the physical stuff still. Will I eventually believe? Will I get better? Yesterday was no. Today I just don't know.

I'm reading a book called Trauma and the Avoidant Client by Robert T Muller. It is helping me realize that not believing is not a character flaw, just a part of the big picture when you are a dissociative person.

 

[Abstract]

burdensome to the adults or the current situation(s), or betrayal of one, etc.

I relate Abstract to ignoring it doesn't make it go away. "If only".

Thanks Junebug. I think there can be many things that make children feel unable to ask for help and some of those may be personality based but much comes from environment. The burden issue seems to be huge for you and there must be reason for it. Someone has indoctrinated you somehow in some way. I hope you get free from it as noone is a burden and noone should be made to feel that way.

And yes I have tried everything and to my intense annoyance I dont seem to be able to make it go away.

 

[Abstract]

I'm on a self awareness mission at the moment.

Self awareness is the best rainy daze as hard as it sometimes is. I have been one for the last seven or so years now... A long time.

Thanks for the encouragement. Its strange as I thought I had defeated or at least managed to control the self abuse a long time back but it is as if there are layers. The first obvious layer went but there were others underneath that I did not even know existed. And the deeper the layer the less ownership I feel I have and the less control I feel I have. Its all a little odd I have to say.