Criterion A, Loopholes And Denial.

[rainy_daze]

I like to think about it as a reasoned and functional denial/engagement process.

The psych said a good one today - "You need to be ok with the ebb and flow". I think this is similar to what you've said Jacnic.

From my point of view, I am at a stage where I am "dipping my toe in the water" (psychologist words again). I think that's why I post here sometimes, and unexpectedly a bit of awful stuff leaks out into my posts, but it gives me the strength to go to therapy and verbalise some awfulness, and know that the things that happened to me, happened, and nothing will change that, but finally letting someone else know of the burden makes me stronger in the end. I hope that makes sense. For example, you couldn't constantly live in the basement Jacnic, as that would be awful, and you couldn't constantly live up in the main part of the house, or the stuff in the basement would start to creep up on you. (I think today might be analogy day for me, like most days.)

So, acknowledging the things that lead up to being diagnosed with PTSD is a huge part of it. Knowing that the things you remember are real, and you're not lying - that sounds like coming out of denial, Abstract.

 

[rainy_daze]

Any unwanted sexual experience that does not include guns, knives and even direct threats. Being told about the unnatural death or near death of a family member. Neglect. Physical "punishment" that did not directly threaten death and where bones etc are not broken. Invasive medical procedures that are not life threatening.

I have often heard members say PTSD is about death and the first example has nothing to do with death really. Thoughts.

Sounds like reasons to cause PTSD in my opinion. I know it's a mix of environment and genetics, reaactions, and hey presto, the brain makes PTSD. I would imagine what you describe above could easily cause great fear/horror/helplessness. Have you told a T specifically about what you're thinking/feeling towards Criterion A and where what happened to you fits? I hope you feel better with this soon Abstract, it sounds like a difficult place to be. It sounds like you have taken something that was said somewhere, about your first example, and used that as a way to minimise the flashbacks, and what happened. Does that make sense?

I have copied and put this into italics, the draft APA diagnosis - can't remember if this has been made official yet, I think the DSM thingy comes out soon. Anthony posted it here: [DLMURL]https://www.ptsdforum.org/c/threads/wow-the-apa-really-got-the-new-ptsd-diagnosis-right.27151/[/DLMURL]

A. Exposure to actual or threatened a) death, b) serious injury, or c) sexual violation, in one or more of the following ways:

1. directly experiencing the traumatic event(s)
2. witnessing, in person, the traumatic event(s) as they occurred to others
3. learning that the traumatic event(s) occurred to a close family member or close friend; cases of actual or threatened death must have been violent or accidental
4. experiencing repeated or extreme exposure to aversive details of the traumatic event(s) (e.g., first responders collecting human remains; police officers repeatedly exposed to details of child abuse); this does not apply to exposure through electronic media, television, movies, or pictures, unless this exposure is work-related.

Exposure to actual sexual violation is one criteria, of criterion A. Do you see that Abstract? I am sending you a hug if you want one, and if not then something you prefer, maybe a jam scone or a chocolate muffin; I hope this eases for you soon.

I was thinking what SoL was saying, and wanted to respond to that also.

 

[rainy_daze]

Something I like about this forum is that the rules put in place allow people to express their thoughts, but also that members express differences of opinion, and I think that's a good thing, or what would be the point. It is also, in my opinion, aplace where I can answers things truthfully and try to help a person, when I feel that is the best way to be. I think it's good that people can ask for clarification too, so I was hoping you could explain why you said this SoL:

Apologies. I just see you as trying to get others to feed into your world of denial so that you can justify it. I'll bow out now as I see you appreciate their feeding as opposed to my calling you out.

(Please note there is no bad tone to this; I appreciate you think differently, but I felt it necessary to explain) I don't think I've fed into Abstract's "world of denial", as you have said, and have tried to give Abstract the answers to the questions asked. It's my intention to help - and from posting what I have in this thread, I myself got a little stronger. It is the nature of the fourm, connecting with people who understand. I myself used to think I had made everything up, but I soon learned otherwise; maybe this is what makes criterion A hard for people, when you really want these awful thingws to be a figment of your imagination, as opposed to being a reality of the past that you are stuck with. You admit things, you start to heal.

You are correct, to challenge when it feels appropriate to do so, and I guess you are trying to push Abstract in some way, SoL. I don't think anyone is trying to "feed" any sort of denial, I think people are just responding to the topic of the thread:

I think having it spelled out would help me ...... give me something more concrete to fight the internal battle

and Abstract asked for examples of what fits criterion A and what doesn't. I think we're all pretty able to give her examples of what does fit, and maybe that helps her see how her own "story", or world, or past, or whatever label, fits the description. Sometimes it's a puzzle and you are figuring it out. Maybe that is denial, who knows, but I think this thread is a good one as it is something that can be explored by participating in a discussion.

I feel that by answering any of your questions that I'm feeding into your denial. We could debate any and all of those points but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Why? None of us are qualified to diagnose you (or anyone) and as such it is somewhat pointless for us to debate things on which we are not educated. Yes, we can read the DSM criteria, but as it's been said before, diagnosis is more than a checklist of symptoms.

I think a more fruitful conversation would involve focusing on the denial rather than debating the points of diagnosis.

...
Denial just keeps you stuck. I'm sure this is nothing you don't already know.

Nobody ever gets better by not pushing themselves forward. I really think you should focus on pushing through the denial instead of arguing points of diagnosis which fuel the denial.

I don't think Abstract asked any of us to diagnose; I think Abstract has tried to make sense of PTSD in relation to her world, which is part of learning to accept a diagnosis, because it isn't easy for people. I think she is trying to get out of a place that is stuck, as she has started this thread and made reference to another, which suggests to me she is trying to face things.

Abstract, I do not mean to speak for you, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that is just how I see it from your posts and my interpretation of the discussion.

SoL, I hope you can help me to understand why you think it's not very constructive for Abstract to explore something in her own way, and why you think members have not been responding to her in the most constructive way (as I believe everyone has responded by answering the questions asked and are trying t be helpful, rather than fuel something negative). Your response helps with raising my self-awareness; I would hate to be feeding something that would ultimately make someone feel worse and not better. If I became aware of that, I would stop doing it.

 

[Abstract]

Well I may run away if I give myself a chance so in I go...:cautious:

Thank you very much for all the replies. I appreciate them.

Hi Janic,

"intense fear, helplessness or horror".

Yes absolutely. But there are also definite things that would not be included even if they involved those feelings as PTSD is only diagnosed if a traumatic experience is involved and that has to fit an objective evaluation too. And then many people will not actually be traumatised by that traumatic event and things such as genetics, support or connection to another human being, and various other things may protect or the lack predispose.

So a professional can evaluate these things and they do look at both the feelings at the time and the subjective evaluation of the event/s as well as the other criterion.

For some people, your list of events will not cause any problems,

I am not owning the things I wrote down and am discussing them as general concepts but I hate, hate, hate, hate that I could get PTSD from something someone else did not. And there is no doubt that that is the case. I am very glad for those who are not affected of course.

I have thought of myself as tough, rational and resilient and it hurts to see that that may not be true at all. It shames me greatly. Which is probably shameful in itself because I suspect it hints at other not so healthy aspects of my self. This cannot be life. I don't recognise it.

 

[Abstract]

edical procedures" (many, over a period of years)..."intense fear, helplessness or horror"... my PTSD

I am so sorry Movin'On. :( Our bodies are our walls against the world and our personal space and they should represent safety not horror, terror, helplessness and lack of safety. Thank you for sharing.

 

[ninja]

I have thought of myself as tough, rational and resilient and it hurts to see that that may not be true at all. It shames me greatly.

I understand, but I disagree that "allowing" oneself to acquire PTSD from something another person may not have, means you are not tough, rational and resilient...or says anything about your character for that matter. Equally, I think it's important to realize that your strength, resiliency and rationality are all evidenced by your motivation to heal. In my opinion, it takes a lot of all three of those things to face the traumas and residual issues from the traumas.

Sending virtual hugs if you'd like them. :)

 

[Abstract]

Hi Rainydaze,

Thank you for all you write. You are very kind to do so and it is helpful.

Knowing that the things you remember are real, and you're not lying - that sounds like coming out of denial, Abstract.

Oh compared to where I was three years ago I am out of denial! ;) Up until then over my whole life I did not even really think that I was real let alone anything else. I often still feel I am not but it is different. I have a lot of self awareness whereas in the past there was none in relation to myself.

Have you told a T specifically

This is a bit complex. I am going to sound pretty pathetic but I found myself in trauma therapy but then ended up not being able to speak. Something that can happen for me but that intensified. As a result it has been almost impossible to ask questions like this or communicate. And then my treatments ran out (charity) and I have had some pretty bazaar physical blocks to getting back in T since. My conscious mind is willing and committed but it seems another aspect of my mind has different ideas. Its very disempowering.

Just to be clear I know Criterion A only relates to potential causes of PTSD. What makes one person get it and another not is way more complicated than that. Although I imagine there must be certain things that it is almost impossible not to get it from.

taken something that was said somewhere

Oh I can find a way to use almost anything against myself in this regard it seems!:p But on a more serious note I do think this stuff I deal with may be more complex than just denial, at least. Maybe I will turn out to be wrong. The way I react to myself sounds very like someone else in my childhood. I think there is some sort of introjected energy going on and tapping into my self doubt and invalidation issues as well as the denial. That the three or four things mix together into a nice little toxic mud pie. Add in a few dashes of dissociation to refine the effect.

Anthony posted it here:

Thank you very much for this!! :) That helps me a lot! Even my brain can't argue with itself that Anthony was including things incorrectly. ;) It maybe does not answer a few of my points specifically but helps. Shall read the whole thing after this.

Thank you too for the cyber hug. You are sweet. I shan't take the chocolate muffin as I have just had a chocolate...

And yes I am trying anything I can to get unstuck... And a while back I realised that I don't think I can do it by myself. Something hard to admit. In the last year I have tried absolutely everything I think. Bar standing on my head and howling at the moon.

 

[Abstract]

Hi Ninja,

I understand, but I disagree that "allowing" oneself to acquire PTSD from something another person may not have, means you are not tough, rational and resilient or says anything about your character for that matter........

Thank you for saying what you did. I am of course much kinder when it comes to others. My mind is clear then. Not with myself. I think deep internalised shame takes its opportunities to come out. And old programmed messages. It was soothing to read.

In my opinion, it takes a lot of all three of those things to face the traumas and residual issues from the traumas

Oh this is another one I use against me actually! I see people discussing things that I find it astonishing to believe anyone can have survived. And I see them facing them, talking about them and moving forward. My seemingly complete lack of being able to do so in comparison is just something else to hold against myself.

I have great respect and awe for those who face healing so bravely. I don't think people who do not understand this stuff understand that such bravery exists.

Thank you for the hug. :)

 

[Abstract]

Hi Springer,

. What happens if with one incident there is total removal of self through depersonalisation/dissociation (physically and emotionally) and therefore "intense helplessness" but possibly no "horror"?
I don't get what your saying hear, because the complete removal of self is precipitated by horror, Flight/Fight/Freeze.

I don't really know.... It relates to one of my things. I guess I have never once in my life been able to look at it and it is behind this wall. I just know it happened and thats all so maybe I dont know what I felt. And I guess the criterion says intense helplessness or horror. Its another case of not clearly being able to tick the boxes without self doubt taking over.

I don't know what happened

I am so sorry that happened. Noone should experience something like that. Hugs if you would like them.

 

[Abstract]

Hi Rainydaze,

being told a family member or close friend has been murdered - which involves the enviornment/situation that that person is told in, as well as who by, timing, details etc. Reaction involving: fear, horror and helplessness. A

I am so sorry that you experienced this and can see how it shattered your belief of the world.

had an abusive parent and I felt great fear he would kill me or a family member if I said anything, because that is what he told me would happen. I worried and cried myself to sleep often, and often I never slept. Rigid awful rules with awful unspeakable things I had to do. That would be being a witness, as opposed to being confronted with, I think. The idea of threat to physical integrity can can be a lot of things I think, including neglect possibly, as well as abuse or even the threat of abuse -

And all this too. I am really sorry this is how things were for you as a child.

With these examples you actually covered a lot of my "grey areas" and helped me think more clearly. Especially when reading again. Physical integrity makes more sense now. I think the new criteria said threats of serious harm etc. I can see how invasive medical treatment and maybe even neglect could fall under that. I am glad they specifically mention sexual experiences in the new version.

The thngs that happened to me and the death of my friend, and the resulting fall out and combination of all of this combined, caused me to fall apart, if I was ever really together in the first place.

I have been thinking that maybe it is almost like a scale and some things add a little weight and some things a lot and certain other things such as the type of scale and the climate etc all contribute and then the weight gets to a certain point and the scale cracks open and breaks.

It sounds like that is what happened for you maybe. I am very sorry it did. And I relate to " if I was ever really together in the first place.". There are some serious flaws in my thinking that I was tough before. I just gave the appearance of toughness. And believed the facade. When behind that I was mess. And it is possible I had symptoms right back into early childhood. Thanks for sharing. And hug for you too if you would like it.

 

[DharmaGirl]

I carry on and speak on here "as if" but mostly I still don't think this stuff has anything to do with me.

Me too! I thought I was just making sh*t up. I have high levels of dissociation also. I remember very little of my therapy sessions or my childhood. My therapist tells me my trauma is real, and I agree to believe him but I don't know how it can fit into my "real" world. As a young child, I was subjected to horrid stuff and my 4 year old mind couldn't handle it so I dissociated. So much so that I don't remember it. When I started having flashbacks and nightmares and it came out in therapy, I still didn't totally believe them. Now I know its true, I believe it in my soul. I gradually remembered how it could be possible, then I was able to believe.

 

[Abstract]

I remember very little of my therapy sessions or my childhood.

Thank you Monster for sharing! It helps me. I too remember very little and what is there is strange in a variety of ways. Its surreal which I guess is not that unusual. Anything more "significant" I can either not remember at all in a sense or it is solidly behind these "metal doors" which I bounce off of if I even stray to close. Its just that in the last few years more things have leaked out. More emotions but not anything else.

I do suspect that a lot of the issues I have with this relate to dissociation in some way or other. I have not had the truly horrid stuff that I believe you have had but I have been very dissociative and probably from a very young age. Certainly doesn't help separate fact from fiction or help one find reality. I am impressed you have come so far. Good for you.