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Shame

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.Bubbles.

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Can we talk about shame? Do you have it? How can you overcome it?

I have noticed since starting my trauma diary, how much shame I actually have. I have shame for certain choices I made. Bad choices that led me to situations which got me hurt. Getting away from a situation, going back, getting away, going back. Shame for the things I put up with. Shame for being weak in certain ways. For being hurt by more than one person.

I don't know what to do with it.
 
I have it too. I have tons of it. I wish I could lose it too. But I don't know how. I wish I could give you a suggestion but I'm needing suggestions too. I have a feeling there might be some kind of help in having more self worth for me personally. But I struggle with that. In fact if I had as much self worth as I do shame and as little shame as I do self worth I might be volumes better. I might actually end up narcissistic that way. The scales are totally flipped in terms of those two things.
 
I'm so encouraged by another thread here which led me to a YouTube video where a professor takes a scientific approach to understanding relationships and discovers that people NEED connection to live healthy happy lives and in order to connect they have to be willing to be vulnerable. Unfortunately, there is a lot of fear attached to being vulnerable such as fear of rejection, fear of public censure or humiliation. She goes into her research and says that it led her to the need to define shame and so she defines it as fear of something being wrong with ourselves that if others found out about it, would lead to them disconnecting from us.

I feel shame for things that I didn't choose, and for choices I made while I was overwhelmed by traumatic experiences, and with this definition of shame, I take it less personally because I know it's not about me or my humanity it is just another fear. It is just another social fear.

The only way to deal with fear is to face it. I'm not going to go announce to everyone those things I'm ashamed of, but when I feel ashamed I recognize that I'm worried about what others will think of me. So I confront what I think of me for what I've done. Point of fact, I am intensely ashamed when I remember various decisions I made while I was in denial. Since then I've remembered the traumas and ended my relationships with my abusive family. I feel better by reminding myself that when I made the bad choices I was not in my right mind. I was deceived. I was gas lighted. I have made adjustments in my life to ensure that I don't make decisions the same way.

Hardest of all is that I've forgiven myself for those mistakes. Part of forgiving myself is repetitive, I have to do it again every time I'm confronted with the memories and each time it comes down to this one motivation. ..I can't be an equal in any relationship if I can't forgive myself for past transgressions. If I'm not an equal, then my emotions run rampant. .. fear that I'm being used. .. fear that I've destroyed all my relationships ... basically fear is at the root of all bad decisions and forgiveness and acceptance are the keys to ending .. or at least quelling those fears.

I hope this makes sense.
 
Shame is such an interesting :yuck: emotion. Its not like guilt. Guilt is useful shame isn't. Guilt is when we do something wrong or feel it is out of step with our values and we feel bad about the action. Shame is us being wrong. Its the essence of us that feels bad and wrong.

And I have to say that shame is such an all consuming thing for me I don't have to be doing anything at all to feel it. It is as if I am mostly made of shame. I also often feel shame whichever action I do. Don't do something = shame. Do do it = shame.

Shame is about keeping us in line with our culture or loved ones. Unfortunately when it backfires it is often old internalised wrong messages that are stored and that can be about anything.

I think it can help to realise that just because we feel it doesn't mean we deserve it. That it can be a kneejerk reaction.
 
How I wish I could make everyone here see what wonderful and valuable human beings you all are! Shame is not restricted to PTSD sufferers, we have all been there, we all have so-called skeletons in the closet. For whatever reasons, because of what you have been through, what you have seen, you PTSD souls seem to feel this so much more acutely. I think it comes from the ultimates - the rejection by a parent, or the abuse is the absolute rejection and denial of love by the people who should love you unconditionally, and who should never betray your trust or your own unconditional love for them. For others like the military, it is the taking of lives, the witnessing of death in unspeakable ways, in a world where you can be rejected for serving your country, and of course we value life. The intensity of the rejection, or the life experience, I think, intensifies the guilt and shame felt later on, even though you had no control over what was happening at the time.

It took years for you folks to feel all of that, to internalize it. That means it will take time to process and to heal. You may not have had control over the situations that injured your souls, but eventually, you can control those feelings of guilt and shame. Self talk is good. Reminding yourselves that you are human beings, and that you are allowed to be just that - human. You are allowed to make errors. That the very essence of your beings do not depend on these errors, but on the fact that you are loveable, valuable souls.

I would think therapy would be a place to start. Dissect toxicity from your lives. If those around you are not uplifting, do not bring you a sense of joy, cannot offer you support, then at the very least, they should be demoted to acquaintance status, if not cut from your lives. For many of you, it's family, and there are interesting threads here on that issue. "You is kind. You is smart. You is important."
 
I don't have the answers to ridding of the shame, but like others comments and suggestions. I am realizing how much shame I carry too. I have also made the connection that when I do not deal with the feelings as they come, and let that shame get out of control, I seem to make choices that are high risk or even self destructive and self abuse. I dont cut myself or use illegal drugs, but I do physical labor that causes physical pain, I have punished myself through gambling and making myself poorer than I am, I have used alcohol, forget to eat, hung out with risky people or people who make me feel worse. All self punishing behaviors.

Sorry I do not have any good answers, just examples of how it manifests in myself. I don't know if others have experienced this, but have a feeling that I am not alone.
 
For the first time in my life and my therapy, I am committing to trying to confront and to deal once and for all with my toxic shame. Currently, it's going disasterously... but I'm trying, and am desperately determined.

I am currently about a quarter of the way through an excellent book called "Healing the Shame that Binds you" by John Bradshaw. This appears to be the most widely referenced and best book on the issue that I have been able to discover to date, and so far, I'm finding it very very validating, distressingly accurate and very thought-provoking. I'm not up to the "what to do about it..." part yet, but am eager to get there. Learning everything there is to know about what is toxic shame, how it forms, why it's not your fault etc, is important, but pales into insignificance alongside the "what the ... do I do about it" question.

I'll post some of my key observations and notes of interest from the book later if anyone's interested...

Really really interested in any experiences or thoughts from others on how they have dealt with this issue. Am trying to do some research on compassion-focused therapy and other possible interventions specifically designed to address the issue, recognizing of course that healing shame is only one part of the work of trauma processing.

Maddog
 
I am also interested in hearing maddog.

Even with the shame that I have, there is this core that I can feel in my sternum area, it is as if it is the core of me, and I know that it is good, ethical, values the right things for me, it is strong and will one day overcome this bs that has hi jacked my life. It has full awareness of who I really am and knows the good. It is my rock. It is within me. It has become harder to come in contact with or to feel.

If I just lie still and meditate and focus on that area, (it is not my heart), it is my center and core and worthy. Maybe it is a chakra. I did some energy work before and was told that my heart is blocked. That I smoke to block my heart, that my rib was broke which protects the heart and much more that prevents me from allowing my heart to be vulnerable.
 
Ok, well...

I havent' progressed any further with the book, and so the notes I have taken so far are thus far confined to part 1 of the book which explores the origins of healthy versus toxic shame and the way each manifests and impacts on life and its quality.

I will post my notes below, a little cautiously, as I'm not sure if they'll make sense in their very brief form (I took the notes to jog my memory on the points I wanted to discuss with T). I'm happy to expand on them later (don't have time or energy now), but maybe others will find some of this interesting, and if not, feel free to ignore. Except where I have written "Maddog adds", these are brief paraphrased points from the book itself. Will come back later to expand on them...


Bradshaw speaks very candidly about his own life and battle with toxic shame. His direct experience of it, and the pain and emotion of it, are very evident in his book. At times you sense that some of the battle is ongoing, such as in his discussion of his client Max.

Shame is defined as spiritual bankcruptcy.

He normalises healthy shame as a necessary regulatory emotion that is required to remind us that we are human, have boundaries of behaviour and personal significance/importance and are intrinsically small in a big world. Shame teaches us modesty, self-respect, caution, pragmatism and empathy.

People often think that identity is an individual and internalised state. But Bradshaw argues that identity is formed through interpersonal connections and through relationships, which Erikson also reflected in his theory of psychosocial development. Bradshaw quotes an old proverb that says that "One man is no man."

Toxic shame is an internalised emotion, and hence it becomes an identity. It is deeper than an emotional state and exists and imfluences the sufferer regardless of changing emotional states.

Toxic shame makes you strive to be more than human or less than human. The acceptance of being human is intolerable and either alternate extreme will do in preference. Those who strive to be more than human become perfectionistic and with unrelenting standards of success and achievement. Those who resort to being less than human behave in ways that are commonly recognized as "shameless" and often indulge in criminality, addictions and sub-standards of living and behaviour.

I think he does a better job of explaining the development of healthy shame as opposed to toxic shame, which is a pity.

Toxic shame forms during the pre-verbal periods when the only way one learns about the world is through emotional interactions with the caregiver. So we are most susceptible to neglect, abandonment and lovelessness during this period, which may prevail even where basic caregiving behaviours are present. Neglect, rejection or harsh or inconsistent interactions teach the child that they are unimportant, problematic or despicable and as the child has no cognitive capacity to interpret or challenge the reasons for this, they accept that the behaviour reflects their fundamental defectiveness.

He describes a number of personal and social problems as being rooted in toxic shame, including borderline and narcissistic personality disorders and addictions.

Note that in some approaches, the treatment of toxic shame is essentially similar to recognized treatments of Borderline Personality Disorder, as both involve emotional regulation, establishing and maintaining a sense of self and externalised feelings of shame and unworth.

He talks about repetition compulsion in the sense of becoming one's own abuser, either directly through self harm or deprivation abuse, or internally through self hate and criticism. Maddog adds that self harm, while also a form of self soothing and emotional release, may also replicate physical abuse inflicted as punishment, therefore representing self punishment and shame.

Addictions of any kind are an attempt at a relationship with the source of the addiction. You externalise your unmet need for worth and comfort onto the source of the addiction. Needs that cannot be met internally are met externally, such as the needs for validation, control, self soothing, belonging and acceptance. Maddog adds that it is when I am feeling most alone and abandoned that I most long for work and engage in addictive behaviours around exercise. But addictions fuel the very shame they may initially suppress and so the relationship with the addiction is circular and reinforcing of the shame.

As a child, toxic shame leads the child to identify with the power of the abuser and the belief that the child is fundamentally flawed. Identifying with the abuser aligns the child with the source of control and power and thus makes the child feel less exposed, while also allowing the child to take some internal control of their defectiveness. Maddog adds that there are strong parallels with Judith Hermann's views on how the abused child takes on the abusers' view of him/her as flawed and defective.

Internalised shame transfers (projects) onto the outside world and internalised feelings of shame are projected onto others. If I think I am bad, then everyone does. Shaming messages are absorbed as valid, and are then replicated internally even when outside shaming messages have ceased. The shame-based person becomes their own abuser and internalised critic.

Interestingly, Bradshaw argues that those who experience toxic shame experience a form of grandeositty. In keeping with being more than human or less than human, the person feels beyond reproach or beyond help respectively. Counterintuitively, the latter is also a form of grandeosity as it implies the person believes they are the best at being the worst and are hence superior in their inferiority. Interesting perspective. Maddog adds that this resonates strangely when I think about it. Feeling beyond help and too broken is a form of protective rejection of the world. I am different to everyone. Nobody can understand me and my problems are too complex for normal people and the normal world. It can feel almost insulting when others try to understand or imply I can be helped.

Shame-based people marry shame-based people because their mutual failures to meet their own and the other person's needs are dysfunctionally compatible, including an agreement never to disagree.

Shame-based parents are needy and experience their own needs like a toothache that doesn't allow them to focus on anything else, including the child's needs. The child's needs are in conflict with the parent's needs, as the parent's needs are usually the same needs which were never met when they were children themselves. A parent cannot meet a child's needs if he/she has the same needs.

Shame-based people become adult children. They remain always needy, as their needs are a child's needs which cannot be met in adulthood. As adults they turn lovers into parents and friends into caregivers. They are insatiable. Maddog adds that this is why relationships never feel enough and as though I am always wanting something I can't have. Awareness of this fact deepens the sense of shame as I know it is wrong and inappropriate, but can't help feeling that way.

Toxic shame destroys personal boundaries. Without personal boundaries, interpersonal and life difficulties can't be managed or regulated, so escape is the only means of survival.

Markers of toxic shame in interpersonal settings include breaking eye contact, blushing, extreme self consciousness, occasional directly challenging behaviour and dialogue about achievements, delusional assessments of self. Bradshaw writes about how the shame-based person can often analyse others and the world with uncanny accuracy, compassion and fairness, but tumbles into "delusional" assessments of self which are often fiercely defended when challenged, even where the person is otherwise not aggressive or defensive. Maddog notes this with irony - T has often referred to my assessments of myself as "delusional".
 
Wow MD! Thank you so much. Boy that is a lot to absorb and is very accurate in my experience. But put into words that help clarify it all.

I will have to buy the book and make it a propriety to read it. Even though I havnt been able to read a book for ages.

Counterintuitively, the latter is also a form of grandeosity as it implies the person believes they are the best at being the worst and are hence superior in their inferiority.
I have started figuring this out but havn't had the words for it. Yuck.

but tumbles into "delusional" assessments
I totally agree that it is delusional. For me. I have even described it as psychotic. Like a pocket of psychosis.

self harm, while also a form of self soothing and emotional release, may also replicate physical abuse inflicted as punishment, therefore representing self punishment and shame.
Yes.

But addictions fuel the very shame they may initially suppress and so the relationship with the addiction is circular and reinforcing of the shame.
Yes. Absolutely. And thats why they solve nothing even though we feel they help. Unusually well explained.

Toxic shame makes you strive to be more than human or less than human. The acceptance of being human is intolerable and either alternate extreme will do in preference.
Very interesting. Food for thought.

repetition compulsion
Yes. I am starting to think this aspect of things is much bigger than I ever suspected.


And after reading all that I feel encouraged, enlightened.... and deeply ashamed. Sickened. Hopeless :rolleyes:
 
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