I Need Some Help With This Friendship Stuff

[maddog]

Philippa, I had a lot of feelings as I read your first and subsequent posts, and most of them were an almost eerie sense of empathy and understanding, as I have a friend whose relationship with me, including recent experiences, feels very similar to the way you are describing, and has placed me in the same emotional turmoil of questions without answers and general uncertainty. So I in no way want to preach to you about anything, as whatever I say will be sent with the same uncertainty and lostness and sense of almost betrayal that I perceive in your writings.

I actually think that your other friend, who commented on the complications of two hurt souls being friends, absolutely hit the nail on the head. The price we pay for added empathy is added volatility and reciprocal challenges at times, and sometimes, when one party is really needing solidarity and unambiguous empathy from the other for a given reason, there can be downsides associated with a relationship in which it is hard to guarantee that, from either party. I guess it's just that the mutual give and take we all have a right to expect in relationships isn't ever quite as reliable or reasonable when both parties are dealing with more than the usual challenges associated with being part of a friendship, and when you're the one in need who doesn't receive, the fall can really really hurt.

I don't feel qualified to say how you should feel or what you should do in any way whatsoever, and always hesitate, to be honest, to comment on these sorts of threads, because I don't know you or your friend or the dynamic of your friendship and it's very easy to be unknowingly insensitive or misguided in my responses as a result, which I don't want.

So I guess I mostly just wanted to say that your dilemma resonates with me. Maybe there will be a time for you to discussit with her, perhaps at a time when the raw emotion of the situation has eased a little and you both have some distance from what is obviously a sensitive matter for both of you. No, that doesn't change the fact that the interaction was bruising at the time, but it may help you both to move through it if the unspoken "elephant on the table" can be spoken about in a way that allows you both to seek and receive some validation for your feelings.

And I'm really, really sorry for the loss of April.

Maddog

 

[CrazyHorse]

I don't feel qualified to say how you should feel or what you should do in any way whatsoever, and always hesitate, to be honest, to comment on these sorts of threads, because I don't know you or your friend or the dynamic of your friendship and it's very easy to be unknowingly insensitive or misguided in my responses as a result, which I don't want.

I could not have said it better myself! With this in mind I will still, however, comment on some red flags I observe in your description of this friendship: I am very alert and sensitive to narcissistic behavior patterns. I heard this saying: It takes one, who knew one, to know one! But of course, with what maddog wrote in mind, and the fact that I am not a doctor and I am not attempting to diagnose your friend, I have been a target of narcssistic emotionel abuse in a 'friendship' with a female narcissist, and have educated myself on their behavior and have learned to take the signs very, very seriously.

The whole deal about the mix up about the day you needed her help, you also wrote that she admitted later she simply forgot. The red flag here is that instead of admitting to that straight away, you go back and forth on who is responsible for the mix up, making you confused about, and questioning what you had arranged. On top of that, it was a big deal for you and a very emotional task you were going on that day.

If she in any way felt pressured to help her friend in this difficult time, the appropriate thing to do would be to either decline to help if she really did not want to, or to 'shut up' about it. You are there in the car already, so it is very inapproriate and inconsiderate to lay that guilt upon you! And you felt that!

'She would rather go camping'! What? Self-centred, non emphathetic,'spoiled brat' and in my oppinion a very narcissistic comment given the situation you were in!

I could go on about the red flags in her behavior, but the key to discover if you are dealing with a narcissist is they way they make you feel. Some of the key emotions are: confusion, irritability, drained, and a ' what happend there' sort of feeling, but I guess that leads back to confusion.

When you are dealing with a narcissist, and especially in an emotional situation, you are not getting your needs met, instead you are there to meet their needs, and if you don't comply to their plans or what they want to do, they do not hesitate to make you feel bad about it. For a narcissist it is all about me, myself and I! Helping others, where there is nothing in it for them, angers them. But they sometimes have to, inorder to try and keep that friendship mask on.

The reason why my 'friend' could get away with her behavior for so long (4 years) was due to my own 'humanity'. I, like you, always questioned my own perception by excusing her behavior:" I am sure she did not mean to", "I was not clear enough", She was proberly tired". This can of course be true, none of us is perfect, but if this pattern is repeated over and over, you should start listning to yourself. I could simply not wrap my head around that anyone could be like this, therefore I continiued to excuse her behavior.

Again, this could be totally different! I wish you the best!

 

[CrazyHorse]

I am taking the liberty to post a little video about narcissistic traits. You might find it helpful :-)

 

[CrazyHorse]

The link did not post, I think I may not be allowed to post links or something :-)

But if you like, you can go to youtube and search for ' female narcissist'. It is the first one who comes up!

 

[Philippa]

The link did not post, I think I may not be allowed to post links or something :)

But if you like, you can go to youtube and search for ' female narcissist'. It is the first one who comes up!

The link showed up on my screen. Thanks by the way.

She told me she has been diagnosed as Borderline Personality Disorder...which also makes some sense in some of the ways she behaves. I appreciate you pointing these red flags out to me...I was a little stoned out of my brain at the time, and probably did not pick up on them...but I did notice a couple of things that really raised a flag for me, though it was a bit of a delayed reaction.

The timing...and it's not just that one incident I've had with this person, I've had a few scenarios where I feel like she only really calls when she needs emotional support, but then pulls that crap on me when I need it? She refused to call me by my chosen name, for no other reason than she didn't think it suited me! I said to her that if she felt pressured she should have said something at the time. I gave her plenty of opportunities to back out, and i had other options, but she sounded like she was so grateful that I asked her to come with me, that I believed her.

I eventually conceded that I may have gotten it wrong, and got the day wrong...and she tried to show me the phone messages between us, which I also had saved and in them she admitted that she did say it was the day I thought it was...then later decided to tell me a different story, which I then thought I had a memory of, so I admitted that I might have gotten it wrong...but maybe I had a false memory? I don't know, and the bottom line is, she could have waited to tell me she felt that way. There was absolutely nothing good that could have come out of telling me at that time, except to guilt me for some kind of control later on...

I'm not sure if she is narcissist or BPD but either way I won't be spending any more time with her at this point. I think it's like my friend said...we're enmeshed and she is trying to get her needs met at my expense without thought or consideration of what my needs are, and it's my father in female form, all over again. I'm not having it.

 

[nomedic1]

I think you give her more, than you get from her.

 

[Philippa]

Another thing I just remembered was the way she made out to me that she had no money and I wanted to pay for her to have dinner with me...which she felt weird about but then eventually let me talk her into it. I really didn't mind and I needed the company and I had the money at the time. I'm a pretty generous person, and I love sharing good food with friends so it wasn't a big deal...but then the next day she invited me to go shopping for clothes and ended up putting about $300 worth of clothes on her credit card???She didn't even have a job and she was spending that much on clothes? Living at home with daddy and not paying rent must be really helping her save her dole money I guess? Or...an alternative would be that she had money all along and only chose to let me in on it when she wanted to shop? I don't know, but it was a bit of a red flag.

My cat also HATED her. She literally ran and hid as soon as I let her in the house the first time they met.
She said that another cat had the exact same reaction, and a friend later told me that cats can pick up when someone has nothing to give. I didn't know if that was a projection of him, or an accurate thing? I know cats are highly sensitive and know when someone is not good. She did NOT want to come and meet her at all.

 

[Philippa]

I think you give her more, than you get from her.

That's definitely true. It is not balanced in the give and take that is natural in relationships.

 

[nomedic1]

No it's not, it should be a relationship that has an equal amount of give and take.

 

[Philippa]

So I in no way want to preach to you about anything, as whatever I say will be sent with the same uncertainty and lostness and sense of almost betrayal that I perceive in your writings.

That's ok maddog. I could never imagine you preaching to anyone. I appreciate your input here, thanks.

I actually think that your other friend, who commented on the complications of two hurt souls being friends, absolutely hit the nail on the head.

Yes, she is very insightful.

I guess it's just that the mutual give and take we all have a right to expect in relationships isn't ever quite as reliable or reasonable when both parties are dealing with more than the usual challenges associated with being part of a friendship, and when you're the one in need who doesn't receive, the fall can really really hurt.

This. SO true. I thought I came to accept this years ago, but it's still something I struggle with coming to terms with. The unfairness of reality vs the ideal of 'how it should be' in friendship.

I don't feel qualified to say how you should feel or what you should do in any way whatsoever, and always hesitate, to be honest, to comment on these sorts of threads, because I don't know you or your friend or the dynamic of your friendship and it's very easy to be unknowingly insensitive or misguided in my responses as a result, which I don't want.

I've never once seen you be anything but respectful of people here maddog, I appreciate the respect you show me here.

And I'm really, really sorry for the loss of April.

Maddog

Thankyou so much. I'm still struggling to come to terms with it...but I'll get there.

 

[Philippa]

No it's not, it should be a relationship that has an equal amount of give and take.

I guess that's something I need to say to her at some point, but I'm not ready right now. I'm still too angry and volatile and I can be pretty harsh when I cut loose. I'll wait til things aren't so raw and speak to her.

 

[nomedic1]

Maybe you should give her a bit of that harshness.