Survivor2Thriver
Gold Member
And we expect they should have panic attacks and hit their heads against a wall. LOL
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My Mom's Old, I Can't Bring This Trauma Up With Her Now,guilty Again!
- Post starter It's all my fault
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Lady of Longbourn
VIP Member
@Survivor2Thriver Vastly inappropriate thing to say IMO.
Temporarily locking thread until @anthony decides otherwise.
Temporarily locking thread until @anthony decides otherwise.
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- #39
anthony
Founder
@Survivor2Thriver you're being passive aggressive, quit it please.
Survivor2Thriver
Gold Member
Nothing passive aggressive about me. I sincerely hope my abusers are banging their heads against a wall. What's wrong with that??
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- #41
It's all my fault
Bronze Member
In my thread, I did not say that I wanted to persecute my mother. What I said was that I wanted punishment for her actions. That punishment can be as simple as her validation verbally of her part in my abuse and a sincere apology. Seeing my mother cry for the first time in my 51 years may be just that, to know she truely FEELS the inpact of what she has done. That is what I am looking for and is probably what a lot of us want, not persecution. Whether or not she was abused herself has nothing to do with her passive abuse of me as her child. If a murder killed someone, should the courts forgive them because they were abused.....I think not. You may be thinking that she is not a murderer, well I feel that I am dead from this. Having worked directly in the medical field as an emergency provider for 25 years, I have seen the effects of both emotional and physical abuse of all generations....including the elderly. Violence is violence and all violence Is wrong.
I did not say that I would be violent with my mom in any way. I want punishment, not violence. I want validation, not invalidation. If emotional trauma is brought to my mom by her act of either standing up and admitting the harm she has caused and continues to cause or her decision to deny the truth and live in the land of LALA, that is of her doing and the consequences should be her own. It will not be my "fault" if she vomits, hits her head or even works herself up to a heart attack, god forbid. No more than it was my fault for being traumatized as a child by her actions and continued inactions. My mother as I said is very spry, is a social butterfly and very active in her community. I resent her facade that everything is great while I go on getting my brain electrocuted to ease the depression she had a part in, whether that part be large or small. I do not wish physical or emotional harm to come her way. The best outcome would be forgiveness, I just don't know how to do that without her admitting and feeling the impact she has had on my life.
I did not say that I would be violent with my mom in any way. I want punishment, not violence. I want validation, not invalidation. If emotional trauma is brought to my mom by her act of either standing up and admitting the harm she has caused and continues to cause or her decision to deny the truth and live in the land of LALA, that is of her doing and the consequences should be her own. It will not be my "fault" if she vomits, hits her head or even works herself up to a heart attack, god forbid. No more than it was my fault for being traumatized as a child by her actions and continued inactions. My mother as I said is very spry, is a social butterfly and very active in her community. I resent her facade that everything is great while I go on getting my brain electrocuted to ease the depression she had a part in, whether that part be large or small. I do not wish physical or emotional harm to come her way. The best outcome would be forgiveness, I just don't know how to do that without her admitting and feeling the impact she has had on my life.
I don't think she'll ever do that. It's not fair at all.
I hate that your healing is stuck on this point. I'd like for you to get better, no matter what she does or does not do, which would entail letting go of her entirely, I think.
Dunno if that helps at all.
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The Albatross
VIP Member
I didn't say "persecute", nor did I say "violence". For the record.
I am pretty shocked at the level of animus for a differing opinion here. Carry on, I withdraw.
I am pretty shocked at the level of animus for a differing opinion here. Carry on, I withdraw.
@It's all my fault, I think using the word punishment is very problematic. If I've understood what you've described, then it I don't think punishment is the word for it. I wouldn't call acknowledgement and apology from your mother a punishment. Punishment is deliberately bringing about suffering of some kind (whether to do with freedom, financial penalty, pain or death). Someone's incidental suffering is not punishment. Setting out to make someone suffer is.
So, it's confusing because you're saying you would not be setting out to make your mother have a heart attack, vomit or hit her head. You want validation, not violence. To me that sounds very understandable. She might suffer as a result of having to be accountable, but your purpose is the accountability. You're not planning her suffering. If you then use the word punishment, I think that's contradictory because punishment is planning someone's suffering - by definition. I hope you won't mind me saying that I just don't think it's the right word. It's making your message unclear.
My point about age being irrelevant is that I think someone is accountable whatever their age. I wouldn't say that someone should be punished whatever their age, because I think accountability and punishment are two separate things. Punishment as I understand it. And I don't think punishment is helpful
There are parts of what you say that I relate to strongly. I'm in a similar position with my now elderly mother who abused me from birth. I have also been treated with ECT for depression. If I confronted my mother now, or even if I broke off contact, I'm certain her emotional reaction would impact her physical health (which is poor) to the extent of serious illness and then death. I hate the fact that I still feel so manipulated by her.
This I disagree with. I tried to work out issues with my mother when I was 19 and she was around 50. As a result, she became extremely ill and went blind. All "my fault", because it was stress-induced blindness and if the stress continued was deemed to likely become permanent. Quite the trick.
She has been fixed in her mental state and denial since the day I was born. Her age has nothing to do with it. What her age means is that her power of manipulation is far greater now. I mean, my mother is good at what she does - going blind as a way to avoid addressing issues is impressive. But now, she can actually die. In one sense you could call that being more vulnerable. In another sense, it's far more powerful.
I sincerely doubt you would ever get validation from her. I think that is most likely a lost cause.
My mother has been in denial my entire life. Denial is all she knows, and it's her survival strategy. There's no way she's going to admit to herself how things were/are, let alone admit it to me.
Forgiveness is about letting go. It's not about saying what the other person did was OK, it's about cutting the chains that keep us stuck because of what the other person did. Forgiveness would be letting go of the need for them to admit and feel the impact their actions had.
This is such a struggle for me, while I still have contact. I can't bring myself to cut off contact and risk her reacting with illness and death. Apart from the obvious reasons for that, there's also the reason that if I hold out and she dies naturally, I think I'll be able to forgive her then. But if I cut off contact and she made it so I "caused" her death, then there would be that additional, huge thing to forgive and it would be all the harder.
In the meantime, I try to contain it. I try to protect myself during the contact I have, and to put my energies into healing, into my own life and into becoming the person I want to be, regardless of my history.
Without the acknowledgement and validation, I suppose I have to approach it like having a physical illness - something that affects my life, and it isn't fair but I have to work on healing and have the best life I can.
So, it's confusing because you're saying you would not be setting out to make your mother have a heart attack, vomit or hit her head. You want validation, not violence. To me that sounds very understandable. She might suffer as a result of having to be accountable, but your purpose is the accountability. You're not planning her suffering. If you then use the word punishment, I think that's contradictory because punishment is planning someone's suffering - by definition. I hope you won't mind me saying that I just don't think it's the right word. It's making your message unclear.
My point about age being irrelevant is that I think someone is accountable whatever their age. I wouldn't say that someone should be punished whatever their age, because I think accountability and punishment are two separate things. Punishment as I understand it. And I don't think punishment is helpful
There are parts of what you say that I relate to strongly. I'm in a similar position with my now elderly mother who abused me from birth. I have also been treated with ECT for depression. If I confronted my mother now, or even if I broke off contact, I'm certain her emotional reaction would impact her physical health (which is poor) to the extent of serious illness and then death. I hate the fact that I still feel so manipulated by her.
This I disagree with. I tried to work out issues with my mother when I was 19 and she was around 50. As a result, she became extremely ill and went blind. All "my fault", because it was stress-induced blindness and if the stress continued was deemed to likely become permanent. Quite the trick.
She has been fixed in her mental state and denial since the day I was born. Her age has nothing to do with it. What her age means is that her power of manipulation is far greater now. I mean, my mother is good at what she does - going blind as a way to avoid addressing issues is impressive. But now, she can actually die. In one sense you could call that being more vulnerable. In another sense, it's far more powerful.
I sincerely doubt you would ever get validation from her. I think that is most likely a lost cause.
My mother has been in denial my entire life. Denial is all she knows, and it's her survival strategy. There's no way she's going to admit to herself how things were/are, let alone admit it to me.
Forgiveness is about letting go. It's not about saying what the other person did was OK, it's about cutting the chains that keep us stuck because of what the other person did. Forgiveness would be letting go of the need for them to admit and feel the impact their actions had.
This is such a struggle for me, while I still have contact. I can't bring myself to cut off contact and risk her reacting with illness and death. Apart from the obvious reasons for that, there's also the reason that if I hold out and she dies naturally, I think I'll be able to forgive her then. But if I cut off contact and she made it so I "caused" her death, then there would be that additional, huge thing to forgive and it would be all the harder.
In the meantime, I try to contain it. I try to protect myself during the contact I have, and to put my energies into healing, into my own life and into becoming the person I want to be, regardless of my history.
Without the acknowledgement and validation, I suppose I have to approach it like having a physical illness - something that affects my life, and it isn't fair but I have to work on healing and have the best life I can.
scout86
VIP Member
Wow! (One of my T's favorite words. LOL)
There must be an almost infinite number of variations on this theme! I've had kind of a chaotic few days and I'm not sure I clearly remember where this started or how it got to here, BUT, and this is just my own experience.....
It does you NO good to take the "This is all my fault" route, or the "I'm the ultimate bad guy no matter what I do" variation on that theme. In the end, it's not about blame, it's about living. At this point, who CARES whose fault it is? The only thing that matters is going on from here and making things better.
I'd guess your mom is a lost cause. Mine is. She is no less controlling or denying, or manipulating now, at 84, than she was at 54, or 34, or 24, for that matter. She's also not any more in touch with the affect she has than she ever was. And she never will be. The only reason I can imagine for confronting her with ANYTHING would be if I thought something could actually change for the better as a result. I highly doubt that's possible.
My T has often remarked that "you can divorce your family, you know?" We talked about that a couple of weeks ago, after another bizarre blow up from her & my brother. I said I supposed that you could, but that to do that you probably had to actually TELL them you were doing it. He kind of laughed and said you can do that in all kinds of ways and for all kinds of reasons. He understands why I don't want to have a grand confrontational blow up. His last word on the subject was, "I'd just like you to think of your dealings with these people as 'interesting', nothing more than that." That's actually working pretty well. She's no more significant than any other crazy little old lady who wanders through my life now and then. She doesn't know that and I don't need her to.
It probably helps that I've never been attached to her and didn't actually get that that was unusual until recently. Not only can't you miss what you never had, you REALLY can't miss something you had no idea existed.
As far as "resolving" anything else goes, what ever issues I have to deal with that relate to her, I'll handle them in therapy the same way I would if she was dead, because for all PRACTICAL purposes, she is and has been for a long time.
There must be an almost infinite number of variations on this theme! I've had kind of a chaotic few days and I'm not sure I clearly remember where this started or how it got to here, BUT, and this is just my own experience.....
It does you NO good to take the "This is all my fault" route, or the "I'm the ultimate bad guy no matter what I do" variation on that theme. In the end, it's not about blame, it's about living. At this point, who CARES whose fault it is? The only thing that matters is going on from here and making things better.
I'd guess your mom is a lost cause. Mine is. She is no less controlling or denying, or manipulating now, at 84, than she was at 54, or 34, or 24, for that matter. She's also not any more in touch with the affect she has than she ever was. And she never will be. The only reason I can imagine for confronting her with ANYTHING would be if I thought something could actually change for the better as a result. I highly doubt that's possible.
My T has often remarked that "you can divorce your family, you know?" We talked about that a couple of weeks ago, after another bizarre blow up from her & my brother. I said I supposed that you could, but that to do that you probably had to actually TELL them you were doing it. He kind of laughed and said you can do that in all kinds of ways and for all kinds of reasons. He understands why I don't want to have a grand confrontational blow up. His last word on the subject was, "I'd just like you to think of your dealings with these people as 'interesting', nothing more than that." That's actually working pretty well. She's no more significant than any other crazy little old lady who wanders through my life now and then. She doesn't know that and I don't need her to.
It probably helps that I've never been attached to her and didn't actually get that that was unusual until recently. Not only can't you miss what you never had, you REALLY can't miss something you had no idea existed.
As far as "resolving" anything else goes, what ever issues I have to deal with that relate to her, I'll handle them in therapy the same way I would if she was dead, because for all PRACTICAL purposes, she is and has been for a long time.
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- #46
It's all my fault
Bronze Member
Thank you both so much @Hashi and @scout86 . You are both so right. I need to drop the punishment and aim for closure, not from her but from myself. She will never change and feel the impact of what she has done and continues to do. What a great trick going blind was, I could so picture this being her. If I confront her with this and she does die, I will again feel to blame and I'm really tired of being the parent and caring for her. I need to accept that she will never be the mother I want or deserve and by staying stuck in this resentment it is just hurting me even more. That said....it's so hard! I need to leave her in the land of "LALA" while I live here on earth. I love the idea of thinking of her as "interesting" although I could add a few more terms! Lol
Lucycat
Sponsor
This is on so many levels. We are happy to punish a child who hits his sibling deliberately. That is not suffering and violence. It is about teaching boundaries, respect and right from wrong.
I entirely get why @It's all my fault might want to punish her mother.
It is pretty ironic that I was part way through reading this post when my own mother phoned. She asked what I was doing - if I was brave I would have told her what I was reading. However she too is living on another planet and no amount of telling will get through to her. I have stopped trying. I have not seen her for 2 years. We just maintain loose telephone contact. She does not even know that I am still needing medication and still in therapy after 4 years. She never asks - so I don't say. We talk about the weather...
As for the discussion on age - I am astounded. My father took his punishment at the age of 70 in the law courts and proceeded to jail. The judge did not give him a 'get out of jail free' card because he is old.
I don't doubt that I will again feel guilty when my parents die. Because that is what I am hard-wired to feel. But I can leave it for now.
It is hard. @Lucycat... My father too went to jail in this seventies for the abuse. I tried to get him in jail earlier but I had no support from my sisters.
My mother is 85. I have no need to punish her for failing to protect us. I understand she was a victim too. She was abused as a child and of course abused by my father too. In those days women did not have the support that they do now.
She knows what I am going through involves my childhood abuse. She just does not like to talk about it. I understand this. I love her and forgive her for her neglect. I put the blame where it belongs - ON MY FATHER
My mother is 85. I have no need to punish her for failing to protect us. I understand she was a victim too. She was abused as a child and of course abused by my father too. In those days women did not have the support that they do now.
She knows what I am going through involves my childhood abuse. She just does not like to talk about it. I understand this. I love her and forgive her for her neglect. I put the blame where it belongs - ON MY FATHER
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