Ect Therapy

[catjudo]

I'm not anti-ECT, but it really sounds like you're wanting it for the wrong reasons. It can effect memory...sometimes it is just a short-term effect and those memories return. Other times it may be a more long term memory loss. But you definitely don't get to pick and choose which memories might be effected.

When I was married to my ex-husband he had ECT. It was the right choice for him at the time and we both agree it saved his life. However, he did deal with memory loss, both short term and long term. One of the most profound examples I think I can give was when he was receiving treatments around the Christmas holiday season. He had a day when he was feeling fairly good so, at his request, I took him out shopping. While shopping he started picking out an item and telling me it would be a great choice for his grandmother and grandfather...and he asked if I had met them? had he ever told me about them? The reality was they had both been dead for years. His grandmother died before I ever met him. His grandfather had been dead for a couple of years. I explained this to him in the most gentle way possible but he was devastated. To him it was like hearing about their deaths for the very first time and losing both of them at the same time. He grieved.

There are so many other examples I could give, but I just wanted to illustrate for you the lack of control you have regarding memory loss. Memories of my ex's grandparents are some of the last memories he ever would have chosen to lose if he actually had a choice. Think about some of your best memories...do you really want to risk losing those?

ECT should be an absolute last resort. It can be life saving when used appropriately. But I don't think it should ever be considered unless all other options have been exhausted.

 

[Justmehere]

I have known several people who have had ETC for depression while also having PTSD - they were apart of a support group I went to for a few months. From what they explained, ECT was only used when the person could not function outside of a hospital setting, and even then, it was only for depression. This is partly because it is very costly and hard to get insurance to cover (at least in the US). For the people that I know that did it - I saw that as the depression lifted, the anxiety part of PTSD worsened and the need for coping skills and to do work to process and integrate the trauma became greater, not less. They often forgot what happened that day, and some of their non-traumatic past, but did not seem to forget any of the trauma. And there were side effects, and times where they were disconnected (not dissociative - something different), a bit less sad, but almost deadened.

If you were in a place where you could not work, go to school, function day to day without repeated suicidial attempts, spending more time in the hospital than not, there was a reputable clinic around that had lots of experience with ECT for someone who has PTSD (and I mean lots) with comprehensive support and integrated treatment around the ECT, and it was either ECT or death, then I would say it's worth looking into cautiously. You would need to plan on being able to take the whole day off from school for each ECT session, and plan space for it to make school harder, as it does really seem screw up being able to learn stuff and make new memories while going through it.

I know you are in pain and are desperate for solutions to move on with life. I'm not sure ECT will do what you are hoping it will. EMDR didn't work for me and CBT alone didn't either. I had to take time off and do some intensive treatment before I saw relief. I also do other kinds of trauma therpies that do work for me way better than EMDR and CBT did for me.

PTSD is a diagnosis that is not fair and is horrible to endure and costly to heal from. It sounds like in your other posts your current therapist is not meeting what you need and I know the pressure of paying for college can be huge.

In the US, there are often county mental health centers that can provide low cost counseling services. If there was a police report, victim compensation can pay for counseling too. There are often low cost clinics in larger cities. You can dial 211 in the US in most places and be connected with united way which often knows of non-profits that help with coubseling.

Getting an education is an investment in your future. So is the time and expense of therapy. If now is not the time, then maybe someday soon it will work out for you to do it. It sounds like you are desperate for relief and worn out looking for answers and help. My heart goes out to you. I'm glad you posted about this and hope you consider ECT carefully.

 

[PandaBear12212]

Okay everyone, please listen. I have already processed the trauma. Completely. I know how to process, I know the psychology. I do NOT need to learn how to process. But I am DESPERATE. To have the MEMORIES disappear, no matter what else is lost with it. The memories are what causes so much pain and misery and flashbacks. I don't want it "for the wrong reasons". Ive tried multiple other treatments and therapies and they arent. working. Medications, different therapies, different therapists, what have you. Im also looking at it because the brain can restart and normalize the chemical levels of the brain. I'm failing all my classes and I just sit in my dorm room in a constant panicked break down. Ive missed alot of classes because I just can not get out of bed. Ive already tried EMDR and CBT but they didnt work. Nothing. Has. Worked. I have not taken my abuser to court because a) I cant tolerate being in a room with him and b) its too late to bring up any physical evidence of the attacks. I saw my counselor again today and he re-diagnosed me with C-PTSD. Complex (or Chronic) Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I've also been diagnosed with depression, anxiety, and anorexia.

 

[catjudo]

You would need to plan on being able to take the whole day off from school for each ECT session, and plan space for it to make school harder, as it does really seem screw up being able to learn stuff and make new memories while going through it.

One would need more than a day off of work/school. ECT is done in courses...several sessions per week until there is either a clear improvement or indications that ECT will not be successful for that person. An average course of ECT is about 12 session. Some take more, some take less.

As soon as the patient has the first ECT treatment, they can't drive. They are not allowed to drive again until several weeks after their last treatment. They'll either need to be inpatient or if they are able to go the outpatient route, need a supportive person who will get them where they need to go and help take care of them during and immediately after the course of ECT. After an individual treatment, the patient will be tired and sleep a good deal of the rest of the day. After the first treatment and a subsequent long nap, they'll be seemingly functional. But as they have more and more treatments during the course, they will have more and more memory problems and even begin to have trouble with basic tasks. This again is where a supportive loved one who has the ability to help care for you is important.

A patient would not be able to go to school or work while receiving a course of ECT.

 

[Justmehere]

Okay everyone, please listen. I have already processed the trauma. Completely. I know how to process, I know the psychology. I do NOT need to learn how to process. But I am DESPERATE. To have the MEMORIES disappear, no matter what else is lost with it. The memories are what causes so much pain and misery and flashbacks.

There is no treatment that can make traumatic memories go away. Not even a lobotomy would do that. Traumatic memories are stored in the most primitive level of the brain and new neuroscience data (as talked about in books such as The Body Bears The Burden) shows the memories are stored in your entire nervous system, not just the brain.

Your mind remembers because it is trying to protect you.

It is possible to have the memories but not the active intense PTSD symptoms you have.

If you want to pursue ECT, you can. It's just not going to make the trauma memories go away.

I also respectfully disagree that having memories of the trauma is the problem and getting rid of them would be the solution.

If making traumatic memories go away worked to get rid of PTSD symptoms and suffering, than dissociation would work, and those with no memory of traumatic events due to amnesia or etc would never develop PTSD, but people develop PTSD even when they can't remember the trauma.

There are ways to improve symptoms. It can take more than learning to process and learning coping skills.

Have you found a doctor willing to do ECT on you? Does the doctor believe it will make the trauma memories go away? Are you ready to take time off from school? Do you have someone to drive you? Do you have medical and therapeutic care lined up before, during, and after? Do you have insurance coverage for it?

 

[Deleted member 1860]

I hate to break it to you, but if you're this symptomatic, then no, you have not "processed" your trauma. Processing allows us to stop living in the past. It allows us to start living in the present. You are very much still living in the past. How do I know that your trauma isn't processed? Your memories are causing havoc in your life. True processing allows those memories to be just sucky memories and not cause emotional upheaval in us. I have processed my molestation. Yeah, it will always suck to know that it happened, but I don't have much of an emotional response to it at all. And no, it is not because I am numb, rather I have processed it.

 

[Hashi]

I have already processed the trauma. Completely. I know how to process, I know the psychology. I do NOT need to learn how to process. But I am DESPERATE. To have the MEMORIES disappear, no matter what else is lost with it. The memories are what causes so much pain and misery and flashbacks.

What do you mean by processing? Like Solara, I have to say that the symptoms you're describing and your re-diagnosis show that the trauma isn't processed. When you've processed the memories, they no longer activate these reactions.

ECT isn't a way to wipe out trauma memories. It didn't wipe out mine, and from what's been said here it didn't wipe out other people's either.

I was desperate when I tried ECT. It only made me feel worse for several reasons. Having the treatments is disruptive because of all the arrangements you have to make around them - getting there, being accompanied home, restricting what you do afterwards etc. I was already struggling to function and the practical arrangements made that even harder. I also had sickness, nausea and disorientation. And I felt even more hopeless and desperate because I'd tried it and it had failed to improve anything.

Have you really tried everything? Have you tried craniosacral therapy? Somatic experiencing? Dialectical behaviour therapy (DBT) skills work for managing overwhelm - and if so, do you carry your lists with you and use them? Do you do structured deep breathing techniques for a minimum of 20 minutes, timed with a clock, when you feel panic? Have you tried visualisation consistently, for at least 30 minutes every day, for at least a month? Do you do journal exercises every day?

If you have tried every therapy and every technique other than ECT, then the problem has to come back to adjusting your approach. Things like radically increasing your skills, staying with things for long enough even if you feel they're not working or you can't do them, looking at how your expectations might be affecting your participation in therapy and so on.

I know what it is to feel desperate. I think all we can do is use that desperation to work radically on healing. I had to keep looking for a therapist/therapy to help me even when I thought there was nothing out there that could. I worked on visualisation, deep breathing and skills for at least three hours every single day, without fail, even when I was suicidal. The way I looked at it, I had nothing to lose. I was willing to do whatever I had to. That's the one positive of desperation.

I don't know what things can help you individually. From my own experience, I doubt that ECT will. I believe that there are things that can, whether that's a different therapist, different therapy or changing your own expectations and approach. I urge you to keep trying.

 

[PandaBear12212]

Yes please people stop insisting I havent tried. Ive done multiple therapies and tactics as I have seen many, multiple therapists who all tried at least 5 different tactics. I dont carry a physical list. Because the coping skills dont. Work. I try my hardest and they just dont. Work. Seriously. Breathing doesnt work. Somatic experiencing doesnt help. DBT doesnt help. Visualization does work. It just doesnt work. Im tired of exeriencing this crap every day multiple times a day for four years now. I do try. Every. Single. Day. I've seen at least 10 therapists, all using more than a few techniques to try and none of it works. None. I dont have time to screw around with more therapists, more tactics that simply dont work for me. For people who found tactics that help good for you but they dont work for me. They just dont.

 

[Kas_Can_Fly]

Also have you considered the other unwanted side-effects some of which you would open yourself upto? Often these are life-long and include: loss of cognitive function and lowering of IQ, permanent headaches, high or low blood pressure, cardiovascular complications including death, stroke, short-term memory loss, physical pains, fractures and soft-tissue injury, seizures, pulmonary complications and these are just the common ones. I've read of individuals afterwards with no control over their bladder retention, an inability to draw for artists, loss of ability to spell and write, sad and confused for no reason, dizziness so bad you can't stand up or see properly, loss of teeth due to severe seizures, making you suicidal, giving you have anger impulse issues to name a few.

The memory loss you would be most likely to encounter (if any), would be short term memory loss - which is somewhat akin to the earlier stages of alzheimers. You would be more likely to not be able to remember what's going on in you're daily life and only be able to remember your trauma rather than anything else. Also, I second what others have said, even if by some stroke of luck you did forget your trauma, you would still have all of the same PTSD symptoms but not know why - including flashbacks.

Truly processing trauma does not mean to talk about it to someone and that's it. It's coming to terms with the things that happened to you so you aren't relentlessly tortured by them, finding ways to cope and being able to accept that they are in the past now (if you are no longer being abused) and you are safe (if you are safe). Finding ways to take these horrific events and no not forget them, but be no longer affected so greatly by them - no nightmares, no flashbacks, no re-experiencing and re-traumatising, no horrific anxiety and uncontrollable depression or hyper vigilance - maybe you will still have some anxiety and depression or maybe not. You won't regain naivety, but you will be wiser than most and able to cope and function will daily life and relationships. You will always have some negatives, but it's about those negatives not ruling your life. That is what processing is.

Are you on medication?

 

[PandaBear12212]

Please listen to me. I feel as if no one is truly paying attention to what I'm saying. I am seriously that desperate to get rid of the memories. Despite consequences. I have accepted that it is in the past now and that I am safe. But it still causes flashbacks. I'm 6 hours away from my abuser and I know I will never see him again. I know. I'm sick of just trying to cope. Yes I am on medication. Again I've tried multiple medications, therapies, and therapists.

 

[Justmehere]

I hear you. I'm not sure why you think no one is listening - can you help us understand that?

I hear that you are in pain and nothing is working. I hear that you have been working really hard to heal and the flashbacksare still happening. I hear how hopeless you feel. Fighting everyone here isn't going to change things.

Here is an article that shows that ECT to delete and erase memories is a technology that has not been developed yet: http://healthland.time.com/2013/12/22/erasing-painful-memories-with-shock-treatment/. Read it carefully. It shows that it's not something science has the ability to do yet.

No matter how desperate you are, no one can provide you something that science has not developed yet.

Do you want help finding treatment or options that have been developed or might help that maybe you have not tried yet? Or supports outside of therapy?

Or maybe right now what you need most is for people to know how desperate you are and how hard you have been trying - and I don't doubt either of those things.

There is still reason to have hope. I have been in a position so many times where I thought I tried everything and I would have done anything and everything to make the flashbacks stop. You are by no means alone in this, and things can get better.

I have a friend with diabetes and she hates her insulin shots. She still has to do them. I have PTSD too and just this week I told my therapist I am tired of working so hard to heal from PTSD. It's not fair it's cruel and I hate it. But it is worth it. And I will tell you what my therapist told me - sometimes we all need a break, extra help, ect. I know you don't like your current therapist, but what does he say to do about how desperate you are that you want to even delete the memories at all costs?

 

[Justmehere]

I have accepted that it is in the past now and that I am safe. But it still causes flashbacks. I'm 6 hours away from my abuser and I know I will never see him again.

Can you help me understand? How does knowing you are safe mean that the flashbacks should go away? People with PTSD have flashbacks about long-dead abusers. Does it mean they have no hope to get better without erasing the memories too? No, it doesn't. They can and do get better.

I know you are studying psychology in your undergrad work, but most therapists themselves don't learn about the ins and outs of PTSD and recovery from complex PTSD until their last year of grad school. Have you read any books like Waking The Tiger or Body Bears the Burden or other books about PTSD?

Have you tried a trauma specialist? I was in therapy for years with a general therapist and I have made more progress in 6 months with a trauma specialist than years with a general therapist. I know you have tried many options. Have you tried talking to doctor who does ECT about your desperate desire to do ECT? To stop the flashbacks at all costs? Have you tried a residential or inpatient *specialized* treatment program (not just an adult acute care psych unit) for the eating disorder or PTSD? A lot of people have to get that level of specialized support before they find that *any* outpatient care works - and the vast majority significantly improve much faster than they would have otherwise. I had to do that myself.

Complex PTSD, especially when there are other diagnoses involved, can and usually takes years to recover from - but it is possible, and it is so worth it. Things will get better.

What is your next step to pursue the kind of healing you want? Do you want some support around that? I don't think you will find many people here willing to say ECT is a great next step for you - but there are a lot of folks willing to encourage you on your journey in other ways. And if you find a doctor willing to do ECT to attempt to erase the memories, it won't be an easy road and this place is still here for you.