News The God Debate

[Muzikluvr]

EDIT: I wish I had started with this post. A moment ago
It has taken me several posts to express my belief. All of the posts in this thread are insightful, and the thread has not fallen into anarchy, just yet.
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Scientists know that we are made up of common elements found in abundance in our universe. In fact, our universe is composed of the same top 4 elements that we are. .. Carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen.

What if... There is no God to account for our consciousness? What if there is some other explanation for our awareness? What if our preoccupation with religious beliefs written down 2000 years ago, is actually preventing us from creating a society on earth that is more fair and more beneficial for the vast majority of humans?

What if religion is doing more harm than good? What if the real answer to a close to utopian society lies in our ability to connect with one another?

I've come to understand just how necessary it is to experience a connection with others or with nature every day. I've also become more aware of the myriad of reasons for people avoiding connection with each other. For myself, connecting with others was a huge hurtle to surpass. Not only had people effectively forced me to disconnect in childhood to decrease their risk of exposure for abusing me, but I was indoctrinated in Chritianity through weekly Sunday services and racism/biases through constant warnings to avoid certain people.

In order to establish a connection with others, I had to face all those fears, and figure out reasonable ways of deciphering who is safe and who is not safe. Yesterday, I heard this quote by Steven Weinberg.

"Good people will do good things, evil people will do bad things, but it takes religion for good people to do bad things"

This sums up much of my confusion in figuring out who to trust and who not to trust.

 

[Lucycat]

I have already worked this out. As a youngster I was a Sunday school teacher. I believed everything.

Now I am an atheist. And life is so much simpler. I respect Richard Dawkins. His words have helped clarify it for me.

I don't need religion. It served to show me that being a victim was going to send me to hell. Now I know better and feel better.

 

[a3a2]

I look at the hospitals near my home. Most of them are named after some Saint or another. Why? I ask a friend in serving in an impoverished nation, which groups are doing the most good in the area? The religious organizations, she answers, though she is an ardent atheist. Which group is the most ineffective, I ask. The UN.

What if there is a god? What if our world is broken because of sin?

Muzicluver, I sympathize with you. I am sorry you suffered at the hands of someone claiming to be of some religion. Most of us suffered at the hands of someone who was pretending to be someone they were not. I, for example, had the "perfect father". I know, because he has let me know many times...

Some of us, though, have really had our lives changed for the better. And are changing lives for the better because of our convictions and our love for God.

 

[franciemarnie]

Scientists named themselves the new God. What they say is supposedly Truth though they are often proved wrong as time goes by.

Before Science became the first and last word - in the 1600's - everyone knew you couldn't comprehend God. The Bible was not read literally. It was read as mostly metaphor. Only when scientists said measurable Proof was necessary did people read the Bible literally. Otherwise they had to throw it out.

The Truth and God is a mystery IMO. We can conjecture forever, but who can know?

There was certainly a First Cause I imagine to create Being.

We must live as if God does not exist to create a just world - even if God does exist. (Paraphrasing Dietrich Bonhoeffer.) If God intervened at every injustice, this would be an absurd world with no consequences.

My two cents.

 

[Hashi]

"Good people will do good things, evil people will do bad things, but it takes religion for good people to do bad things"

With religion, what can be a very pure belief system can be used in bad ways. Any system of knowledge or belief can be used in bad ways. The same thing happens in politics, in law, in medicine, in science. Did religion tell us to pollute our planet? Did religion tell doctors to perform thousands of lobotomies? Was religion the ideology behind Mao's Cultural Revolution?

 

[intothelight]

The more I studied mathematics and science, and became aware of the intricacies of the tiniest building blocks of matter, that is when I started to believe that there was "something" bigger out there. I thought I understood that "something", the reason and the purpose, but right now I find myself struggling.

Why do humans, since some of the earliest times have religion of some type? Why are there so many similarities in creation stories among different people on different continents? Why do the members of three major religions, who have common roots, spend so much time hating and trying to harm each other?

Yes, I believe in God, but what all of that entails I have no clue. It is something that each person will have to figure out on their own. I seem to be full of questions that have no answers.

 

[Barberian]

Sorry, got carried away with this post. Some of the questions posed by the OP are questions I've wrestled with most of my adult life. Some of this is just me thinking out loud. Some of this is my OCD characteristic about writing, expressing it's self.

"Good people will do good things, evil people will do bad things, but it takes religion for good people to do bad things"

IMHO those "good people" using religion to do bad things, aren't good people. They are bad people pretending to be good. They suffer from many impurities, and use "religion" to try to cover it up, to lie to themselves to try to justify their behavior. If you look hard enough, you can find an excuse for just about any deviant behavior or thoughts in the bible, and probably many other religious texts. You will also probably find many explanations that behavior or thought is bad. It's open to interpretation and what is in your heart whether what you learn is knowledge, or an excuse you are looking for.

Yes, some pretty bad things have been done and used "religion" as an excuse. Some of the worst things in human history. If you research them, you will probably find it never was about religion. It was about power (including access to sex), greed, and ego. It is also one of the most powerful motivators in human behavior, hence it's use. Before the masses were educated by today's standards, the masses were easily motivated, or demotivated by the fear of going to hell, or incurring the wrath of the religious authorities and God (which ever one they worshiped). Many "churches" and most people in them would explode into flames if God was still actively working with us as in the Old Testament.

I learned early in my childhood to avoid people who were controlling, and used whatever tool they could, to try to make others think and do as they thought and did. I saw some use religion, fear, peer pressure, shame to control those they could, and make outcasts of those who wouldn't bend to their will. Just think of the "mean girls" in highschool, but move them into a church setting. Just because someone is "religious" doesn't make them holy.

What if... There is no God to account for our consciousness? What if there is some other explanation for our awareness? What if our preoccupation with religious beliefs written down 2000 years ago, is actually preventing us from creating a society on earth that is more fair and more beneficial for the vast majority of humans?

I wrestle with this question a lot. Personally I believe in God and his angles. I also believe there is a Devil and his deamons. I believe people will be people. I can't remember the passage(s) in the bible, but the reason God doesn't get involved with each and every bad situation, is he gave mankind free will. To stop one bad person from doing a bad thing is in direct conflict with his promise of free will. Take away eternal consequences for our behavior, let people do what they want without eternal consequences and you will have a hell on earth much worse than it is today. Many more people will "get theirs while they can" without fear of punishment by God. An old saying is "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". Another way to think of this is discipline motivates, fear of permanent and absolute discipline (hell) can be the difference between choosing to be good or evil.

Energy and matter can never be created or destroyed, only converted from one form to another. I still have issues with the big bang. I believe the universe is much larger and older than the scientist can detect. There are BILLIONS of galaxies that we can see. Countless more galaxies we can't see. Most galaxies have MILLIONS to BILLIONS of stars with untold numbers of planets, asteroid belts, etc. Untold amounts of matter and energy between them that hasn't been condensed into stars, planets and such.There is no way to measure that much mass and energy. How could it have been smushed into a pinpoint of anything? If energy and matter can not be created out of nothing, where did it come from? Even with the argument it burst out of another universe (multiverse), somewhere, some time it was created, or did it just create it's self? All of it, that is made out of the same identical building blocks. The countless Billions and Billions and Billions of galaxies, stars, planets, etc.

Historically "Magic" and "God(s)" were used to explain that which mankind didn't have the knowledge or capacity to explain or understand. I've believed in God since my earliest memories. I have personal experiences that reinforce that belief, but I've already written too much.

 

[Muzikluvr]

I think it was said that 40% of average scientists, not the elite with several doctorates, believe in a personal God. A personal God being defined as one which is prayed to in order to influence one's life. So, this is not the scientific community as a whole who are responsible for atheism or for the way their findings are being interpreted. In fact, William Lane Craig stated in a debate with Laurence Krauss, that most atheists come to science AFTER they've decided for themselves that there is no God. That is true for myself. I rejected the constraints of religion and felt enormous relief years before I could wrap my brain around science.

I struggled to overcome overwhelming anxiety at any disagreement. The scientific community welcomes disagreement, it is the only way their ideas can be proved true or false. They cannot trust a result without embracing constant discussion of it's validity, or they may end up trusting the influence of a revered and respected mentor. The beauty of science, for me, is this cornerstone of it's existence. The fact that my father, too, told me constantly in his way, that he was perfect... and that others enjoyed confirming that to him... certainly contributes to my new found love of science.

I wonder why, as new scientific data becomes known, does religion adapt to it? Why don't people decide that the religion must be wrong, and search for a new answer? Herein lies my concern...

What if there is actually an explanation for many coincidences, and for the spirituality we all feel... an explanation that doesn't include one God, but instead involves an interdependence that we all feel not only emotionally, but also physically. The elements of our bodies naturally combine with each other. When those bonds are broken, the elements don't disappear, but seek new bonds.

What if our society believed in a collective consciousness without borders, without prejudices, without biases? What if we supported and cared for one another, the creatures on the earth, the earth and our universe in a spirit of interrelated, interdependence?

What if there were no promises of Heaven or threats of Hell? What if none of the religions on earth were right? What if they were all wrong, and had nothing left to fight about?

Matthew 7:20-22
…20"So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'…

But, there are many expectations of Christians, as there are for Jews and Muslims, to be worthy of entering the kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 7:14, “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

I would like to leave the kingdom of Heaven to those who feel so vehement about it, who are so filled with their convictions that they may have a chance of actually make it through that narrow gateway. Unfortunately, part of their requirements are to recruit new believers with the promise of Heaven. Is it not infuriating to you, that so many preachers tell people that their sins are forgiven, that Jesus welcomes them and they will enjoy Heaven after death, simply for the great Love that is Jesus... simply for believing in His name, for accepting Him into their hearts, for repenting their sins?

Why can't I rely on what I read in the bible to lead me to the narrow gate of Heaven? Why do I need an interpreter? How do I measure the interpreter's reliability?

We must live as if God does not exist to create a just world - even if God does exist. If God intervened at every injustice, this would be an absurd world with no consequences.

What if our friends and neighbors are too willing to sacrifice their friends and neighbors because they're fixed on a life in Heaven, and ignoring much of their own lives and those around them here on earth?

We ARE interdependent on one another. What would happen if people stopped putting God between us, and started depending on one another as equals, human to human... not saved and others. Not Muslim and Christian. What would happen if we embraced our interdependence and began working together to create a better society... one where even homosexuals could contribute... one where women could contribute... etc...

 

[Candleflames]

I know a lot of people think of Judeo-Christian when religion is mentioned but I wanted to point out that while they have been very prominent in western culture for quite a while, other religions existed for thousands of years beforehand. Science also has it roots in ancient cultures too. Religion and science have changed greatly in the several thousands of years we humans have been around.

What if the real answer to a close to utopian society lies in our ability to connect with one another?

I think you right that it is the connections that make society work and enrich the lives of the individuals. There are lots of ways to connect. Religion is a big one of these because it provides not only a connecting way to view certain things but the rituals that allow for people to bond. It's those rituals that are what is the most unifying. We could all get together and decide on a belief system and say it's from a higher power yet agree that the higher power doesn't exist and still bond through the rituals of honoring the word of that higher power. We can become better people because of our connection or we could tear ourselves down but that has no bearing on our belief but how we choose to practice.

I don't know that we can ever get all that close to a permanent utopia though. I also don't think a permanent distopian society is very likely. That's because I don't think there are "good people"or "bad people" but that we have the capacity for both loving beneficial action as well as hateful destructive actions already within us. What we do is a complex scenario of what we've learned, experienced, feel, the circumstances we are living in and more things out of sight or not understandable. It's just so much easier to point to one cause for our actions than to try to really understand. People commonly use belief, nonbelief, some scientific evidence, some song that was heard, the guy or gal next to them, an advertisement and on and on, to rationalize a whole host of actions.

Personally I believe that there is something that is withing everything in existence that created life and gives us consciousness but it's to complex and unknowable for any of our religions to be all encompassing. Each belief system has it's virtues and it's limitations and it's human faults built in.

My additional two cents is that those people that hurt you in the name of religion: They are responsible for their actions. The "my religion made me do it" is them grasping at straws to justify what they did. It's twisted reasoning and it's wrong.

 

[Muzikluvr]

Take away eternal consequences for our behavior, let people do what they want without eternal consequences and you will have a hell on earth much worse than it is today.

This actually resonates as the very same sentiment Franciemarnie stated above in that we should live as if God doesn't exist to create a just world. I think it's much much harder for the "good" people of our world to embrace this practice, than it is for the evil people in our world. Predators, those people who prey on others mentally, emotionally, physically, sexually; they are the abusers who are evil, IMHO. I know many abusers who are also victims and enablers, these abusers feel bad for their behavior... but repeat it again and again. Not all predators seek to inflict harm on many victims, some just seek the sheep, figuratively speaking, who will do their bidding and abuse that person until that person resists or dies trying.

But, those who are predators have already grappled with this notion and decided that the world is their playground and people are their entertainment. AND... all of this rant of mine is based on one predator in particular, who in my childhood told me that neither God nor Satan exist and he's not afraid of anything. Why would he be, none of the social pressures to behave were effective on someone who chose not to believe them.

If good people lived with belief in their own power, the way the predator in my childhood believed in his own power... our world would be a much more ordered place.

However, good people don't tend to want to be the ones deciding what is right, what is wrong, and how to apply that in each situation. Most people want someone else to draw the line. Some people want to be the ones drawing the line... and some of them are corrupt. How do the majority of us avoid charlatans and predators? How do you decide who is good and who is bad? If you have any logical path to draw conclusions, why don't you apply that to religion in general?

We know that the Catholic church has, and has had for centuries, corruption in it's highest ranks. Why do we trust even the most rudimentary beliefs shared between Catholics and any other Christian organization? How can we trust any of it to be true? Why would we trust it? What about it makes it appealing?

 

[Caterpillar]

I've always felt that organized religion is the problem, not religion itself. Put someone in power over others with no checks or balances and bad things happen, whether it's a religious or secular organization. The hierarchal, unchecked system of authority used by most major religions has proven to be ineffective at preventing abuse. That's why most of the developed world has traded in kings and emperors for presidents and senates. It's still a crappy system, but worlds better than the medieval systems still being used in many major religions.

Personally, I believe religion should be a private matter, something studied and practiced individually within the home. This prevents it from being polluted by politics, social issues, or other unrelated concerns. Basically, it keeps religion sacred, and ensures that every person's belief is something they've come to on their own rather than through indoctrination or social pressure.

I don't think religion makes good people do bad things. I think bad people use organized religion as a platform to do bad things. I do think we need to stop viewing this platform as sacred so that we can rip it out from under the people abusing it.

 

[Muzikluvr]

I don't know that we can ever get all that close to a permanent utopia though. I also don't think a permanent distopian society is very likely. That's because I don't think there are "good people"or "bad people" but that we have the capacity for both loving beneficial action as well as hateful destructive actions already within us. What we do is a complex scenario of what we've learned, experienced, feel, the circumstances we are living in and more things out of sight or not understandable.

This is the best! I agree that people are neither good nor bad. They make good and bad choices and they do it for many different reasons.

We can become better people because of our connection or we could tear ourselves down but that has no bearing on our belief but how we choose to practice.

Religion could lead people to do great things, and we have evidence of religious people doing great things, but it can also lead people to do terrible things, also evidenced. What I'm wondering is what will people do if they are free to choose after learning how to reason and question everyone and everything around them? Will they be able to decipher what is the right thing to do, and would they make equal or better decisions about it without a fear of God?

In fact, my question about it is directly related to the intense social pressure I feel to "have faith in God" and to be Christian. Where I live, no one asks if you're Christian, it is assumed that you are. That's how little the Christians I live around consider other people's faith, and other people's beliefs. They assume that no one would mind their spreading literature about their church to the children at school. They think nothing of "drumming up business" (which they would never describe this as, but in fact it is exactly what they're doing) by hosting a big dance party for the middle school students at the school, and then preaching an age appropriate sermon in the middle of it... then sending home literature to the parents. But would that really be a big deal if society taught kids to think rationally for themselves? Isn't the issue here, that the kids are being taught a bias and as adults they are happy to inflict that bias on others, feeling empowered by being a majority?

I don't really care if there is a God or not, especially if He's one who doesn't care if I capitalize his name. I don't know if a god exists. I just know that religion has lied through it's toothy grin at all of us for centuries and I can't figure out why people continue to adapt it to fit their beliefs rather than throw it out and start anew down a path that is more logical, more reliable, more reasonable, more honest.

Here we are in the information age. Here we are able to have an ideological discussion among participants all over the world, and yet, 85% of Americans believe in a personal God who is answering (or not) their prayers based on His plan for their lives, or what He thinks is best for them or for society at large.

I think we could come up with better answers. I think we can do a better job making decisions. I think we can influence a society's behavior and outlook on life in a way that better responds to their needs and ours as a whole. I think that we could run our world better, by connecting it than by dividing it geographically or ideologically. I think people are content when they feel represented, and are anxious when they are marginalized. I think that Americans view our government as "majority rules" even though it's clearly suffering from the exploitations of the rich, at present; instead of believing that our government represents everyone, including the minority. I'm very concerned, that American politics seems so affected by the need for candidates to declare their Christianity or other religious affiliation. I wonder at how people can think that believing in a God who would reward them in Heaven for following the teachings of an iron age book in the information age, can believe that their choices are beneficial to our world. But then, is it about what's beneficial for our world, or is it about what God wants? And, are those two ever the same?