News The God Debate

[The Albatross]

As this is a two dimensional medium, and we have no contact in person... combined with the fact that this is a mental health forum and is a discussion, I see no conflict so far as the teachings of my confession of faith, holy book, or doctrine.[DOUBLEPOST=1400378447,1400378250][/DOUBLEPOST]I don't personally care what anybody else believes, but think that if anybody is interested in questioning anything, faith, religion, God or god, or none at all. I would think that it might be best to read and study widely.

 

[Tinyflame]

@Muzikluvr , I'm no authority here, but far as I know, the Bible is considered the stories or 'history' in many respects. I think, too, since He was crucified, attesting to the same immediately certainly would have risked one's demise. That being said, the question becomes (since crucifixtions were common), can we believe He was who he said He was? I do believe so, I think others have believed as well, since they are ready to die for it or do. I think I would die for it too to defend that belief, though I don't say that lightly, what I sometimes find harder (for me) is to live for it, to persevere. So for me 'staying alive' becomes my challenge or testimony (partly) to my belief.

As far as writing it down as you go, I wouldn't have. To me that makes more sense, think of yourself living, who has time? Especially during crises and moving. Similarly, much is understood (by anyone) after more facts are revealed, and within context.

The biggest issue I see or believe is that Jesus didn't just exist, but 'exists'.

I do know one thing though, they have 'accounts' as it were, of people who believe they 'see/ saw' Jesus; the thing that resonates with me the most is that in those accounts He always has wounds. That I 'get'. Me too.

Believing that someone could go through that for me, is what to me shows (proves) love. Then added in comes the daily-relationship. I don't 'get' God but I'm glad He gets me. God has been there in the horror, with me. Even if I didn't realize it. Not with me, but even within me. If I've gone through it, to me He either went through it first, & worse, or went through it with me, or is now.

 

[Tinyflame]

And @Muzikluvr , I believe He is & was most certainly with anyone suffering, abuse, Aids, rape, discrimination, or otherwise. If others don't see, acknowledge or believe that, they are wrong. :( :cry:

Must close but wanted to add a funny edit, the 'saint' from the Bible that is honored on my birthday, turns out scholars think he had possibly ptsd. :laugh:

That's what I mean- I think 'real' God has a sense of humour too, & does very tender things to encourage people. I think we're hard-hearted, not God. But that's just me.

 

[Muzikluvr]

Again, thank you for your posts @The Albatross Your opinions are duly noted. I have read some of the bible before, but I found myself so outraged by what it had to say that I closed it and went searching for a frame of mind which would allow me to read that bullshit and agree with it. What I found was that there are many people who don't believe it.

It is quite good that you are encouraging people to read it. I might have opened with that, since it is one of the main things that contribute to people becoming Atheist... reading the bible for themselves!

My questions are really for those who don't believe that the answers are all in a book. Those who are on the fence. Those who are wondering why they can't figure out who to trust and who not to trust because those they trust are following all the right rules, and backed by many trustworthy people. I find that much easier to figure out now that I'm not committed to believing in anything. Consider how your heartstrings are pulled by your loved ones, and yet some of our loved ones are abusers. Abusers know what we want. The church offers us many of the same arguments.

Community. A father in heaven. Justice, eventually. Love. Acceptance (well, for some. Honestly, there is a lot of judgment in church by others in the congregation). But, if you can set that aside and focus on the acceptance you feel in your heart... then you get acceptance.

This brings me back to my opening, how do we know that the acceptance we feel in our hearts isn't due to self-acceptance? How do we know it's God giving us that acceptance? Why is it appreciated that someone outside of ourselves accepts us when we cannot accept ourselves, rather than gaining the clarity that accepting ourselves is the backbone that sets us free. You want backbone, accept yourself, flaws and all. You want to say what you mean, mean what you say? Confront yourself inside, not God. What if we could come up with better answers without God than we can come up with God?

And @Muzikluvr , I believe He is & was most certainly with anyone suffering, abuse, Aids, rape, discrimination, or otherwise. If others don't see, acknowledge or believe that, they are wrong.

Why didn't Jesus speak out against slavery? I'm asking questions about what happened in history. Why do you elevate the words of one book and disregard the other history around it?

 

[The Albatross]

Hmmm. More contempt. Perhaps you can find the answers in Buddhism. Carry on. But pause to consider that slavery still exists today as it did in the several thousand years prior to the time of Jesus.

 

[Nebulustrix]

I believe it is important to take some very big steps back to the basics when attempting to discuss anything related to God, religion or any sort of belief system. Everyone enters the discussion with their own biases, definitions, and understanding depending on their personal experience, study, and background. We all may be speaking about "God" but find ourselves getting nowhere, because we have each defined God differently and have attached the assumptions related to our personal definition to everyone else's.

Some reject the existence of a higher power entirely after studying only one "version" from one religion. Others reject that higher power after extensive study of all the religions of the world. And then there are those who believe for similar reasons as those who've rejected deity. Some stay with one religion - the only one they've ever known - and remain close minded to any variations. While others dig and search and study until they find a religion and description with which they agree.

Religion, in general, is an organization of people who have come to the same conclusions about deity and the "Truth". Disagreements between different religious organizations can become even more heated than disagreements between individual people, as each group is certain they are correct and the other is dead wrong. Even if a religion has found THE Truth, any organization of people is not infallible. They are subject to misinterpretations, misunderstandings, and mistakes. Convinced of the correctness of their position and the wrongness of everyone else's, it is no wonder that many religions have historically led misguided endeavors to "save" those they consider "heathens" or protect those they consider innocent from potential corruption.

The world is now saturated with so many different religions and belief systems, it is no wonder that many look into the great big mess and think "how could there be a God?"

To these all important questions, I have found that each must seek out the answers for themselves. I believe that there is an altruistic Truth. I believe in deity, in a higher power, in a creator, a loving spiritual Father, a Savior, in God.... I've studied long and hard - world religions, science, history, etc... but it is not my studies that led me to believe. Certainly I have gained a better and deeper understanding for the world and the people in it, and I have found many things that have strengthened my belief - but the strength of my belief had to come from within.

I believe that we are each capable of recognizing Truth if we will only learn how to listen. I believe that all who have not given up on the search, though we come from differing backgrounds and are able to accept and understand only certain portions of Truth and may currently stand in positions of disagreement, all who continue searching will eventually reach the same goal - because there is one Truth and one goal - one God and one creator.

I don't think it matters now if we agree on the details. I think what matters is that we each live according to the truth we have received - that we each live according to what we know in our souls to be right and do not reject it. And as we continue to seek more revelation, we will draw closer to The Truth, closer to one another, closer to God, so long as we keep our hearts and minds open to those revelations that will resonate within us and respond when guided to a path we may not have ever considered previously.

 

[Tinyflame]

I think that is a good question @Muzikluvr , not necessarily one that I have an answer to. I do know that He did speak up against injustice, and hung out with women, children & the shunned crowd (unheard of, especially taking it within the context He himself practised the religion of His ancestors). I guess the obvious thought I can see, is He may have He may not have spoken up, but 'if' He had it would have likely changed the course of events (isn't that really how life is, one small difference, & one's whole life can be different- likely would have ended right there), & He was meant to fulfil them. Timing is critical.

That's a huge point- much of what I've learned about what is in the Bible I totally felt different about when/if I learned about the context. (For example, there's one about a 'poor widow', most people take it as a 'good thing she gave when she had little, out of what she had to live on. A priest explained (pointed out) how wrong it was that the 'religious people/ authorities' bullied in essence a poor woman to think she had to do that. True as well). Excellent point Muzikluvr.

Don't let me mislead you- I've been everything, though in my heart probably never an atheist, but much of my life I've felt below God's radar. When really bad I've felt God was abusive. In some ways, having no 'expectation' of a God existing made it easier to than being unwanted. I 'dread' or have to 'work around' a concept of God as a 'father', it is anything but consoling.This brings me to the point- I think God is potentially custom-tailoring what each person needs. For example, I was in a desperate situation with abuse & more in 2006, I googled a saint's name- I don't know why, except that I had prayed for my dog going blind years before to them (she got her sight back). Up came the church I avoided best I could because of a past trauma, then I sent an e-mail I thought was anonymous, then I got help. I would/could (for a variety of reasons) never have been able to get conventional therapy. Is that God? To me, yes.

I see nothing contemptuous in our pains, fears, mistrust & questions. And if I don't, who's just 'me', surely a God who is infinitely more understanding, generous & kind must not either.

 

[TimeToHeal]

I once had someone say to me, "It is sad that you don't have God's guidance. I don't know how you can live everyday without the faith and reassurance that one day you will be in the eternal paradise of the after-life. If I didn't have that faith, I wouldn't be able to make it through the day." Um, really? To me, THAT is sad.

Why is what is real, tangible, and right now, not enough? I do the right thing, am a kind and compassionate person, help others, am kind to animals, etc. - because I'm a good person, not because I fear an invisible God who might banish me to 'hell,' not because one day, after I die, I MIGHT get to spend eternity in some unknown paradise.

Personally, I feel perfectly competent to decide for myself what is right and what is wrong, who and what I find acceptable, and what I do not. I do not feel the need for a predetermined definition of what to believe, accept, and value.

To those who are believers - are you honestly ok with, and accepting of the notion that rapists and murderers, pedophiles and serial killers, can spend their lives committing evil, then just before they die can ask for forgiveness and proclaim their faith, then be invited to spend eternity in the same heaven that you hope to get to? As @Muzikluvr said, isn't that sort of getting the best of both worlds? And then me, who lives an honest, loving, compassionate life, a public servant, contributing to the betterment of society - gets sent to hell for not 'believing'?

I believe this universe is bigger and more complex than ANY of us will ever know or have the capacity to understand. Sure, there are coincidences, intuitions, many things we can't explain. But I'm ok with not knowing, with not having all the answers. I think many people look to god and religion to explain the unexplainable, to find meaning where there may not be any. To find comfort and comradery. And that's fine! If that is what one needs and where they feel most comfortable, then go for it! What I will not tolerate is the unkindness, contempt, the non acceptance of others, ' in the name of god.'

I have many friends who are regular churchgoers and wholehearted 'believers', yet we are able to have close and healthy, mutually respectable relationships. I do not judge, demean, or insult 'believers'. All I ask is that you have/show the same respect for me and my beliefs.

 

[Shadowofdoubt]

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I believe in God's word. Life is still tough for now, but His purpose will be done and things will be the way he originally intended them to be for us when he first created us (before sin infected us). I couldn't imagine how my life would be without having that hope for a better future, or if I didn't understand why things are the way way they are now. It's what gives me reason to continue living. I'm glad this thread has given me the opportunity to give a witness to the Almighty and would encourage you all to not give up in your search for Truth. :).

 

[Barberian]

Barberian said: ↑
Take away eternal consequences for our behavior, let people do what they want without eternal consequences and you will have a hell on earth much worse than it is today.

This actually resonates as the very same sentiment Franciemarnie stated above in that we should live as if God doesn't exist to create a just world.

I think you misunderstood me Muzikluvr. I was trying to say that people would not fear eternal retribution from behaving badly. More people would do evil without worrying about going to a "hell".

Example: The internet. Just in this forum alone, we have all seen trolls come here for no reason other than to agitate and harass this community causing untold negative emotions among the forum membership. The internet allows people to behave badly without consequence(s) because it anonymizes people. How many of those trolls behave perfectly respectable to people face to face, when they might face repercussions for bad behavior?

 

[Pencil]

why does the meaning of Christianity adapt, instead of dissolve?

Mmmm ... is this perhaps a clue? Perhaps because there is something valid in it? Such as that it might be universal enough to be adaptable? But whether Christianity is valid or not, it is clear that it has not become obsolete.

I do, however, agree that religion makes good people do bad things - and with that I use 'religion' in its broad denotative sense, (ie. "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs") as the thinking behind is that you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs, and the broken eggs are a 'just sacrifice for a greater good'.

 

[Barberian]

I found myself so outraged by what it had to say that I closed it and went searching for a frame of mind which would allow me to read that bullshit and agree with it.

I have attempted my best to be respectful to you and your belief system. In reading your above statement, I see you have contempt for mine and really don't care about other people or their belief system(s) regardless of how important it is to them. This thread was started by you, so I will do my best to remain civil, out of respect for your thread, this forum's owners and moderators, and the other members and guests.

After all the posts you have put into this thread so far, I believe rightly or wrongly, your purpose for this thread was not to better understand the questions you opened this thread with, but to try to push your agenda that there is no God. It would be better if everybody agreed with you and abandoned God and religion and lived like that John Lennon song linked below:

Music starts as 0:43 or there about:

Unfortunately, just like true communism, and yes... religion to a degree (not faith) it's a good concept, but once implemented peoples desire for power, greed, reward without work, and ego, it fails every time*.

I was more than willing to engage in conversation with you on this topic. I am pretty open minded, but I do not care to have my core belief system insulted and ridiculed.

* The larger and older the religion, the more corrupt of wayward they tend to be.