News The God Debate

[Deleted member 1860]

I think it's very sad that people confuse God with religion and when religion gets thrown out, so does God.

No matter your religion, there is only one real rule.....God is love. The litmus test for me is "does XYZ follow this belief? If yes, then keep it, if not, then throw it away.

I don't follow any written word like it is the end all and be all of my belief system. I have an overall sense of spirituality that guides me but in the end I make my own decisions.

I don't understand the need for a debate on God. If you believe, that's cool; keep on believing! If not, that's cool too, but for the love of God (haha pun intended) please go find a cause to be FOR rather than being against God. I say this because I see a LOT of people out there who spend so much damn time being anti-God and it is a waste. Why not be POSITIVE and be FOR something? This world has enough negativity, we need a bit more POSITIVITY! That is, do something supportive instead of oppressive. I am NOT pointing fingers at anyone here. Half of my family is firmly rooted in atheism and ok cool that's their belief. But they come across as very negative people (not to mention disrespectful) when they bash god 24/7. One of my cousins even cracked jokes about how my sisters wedding was in a church (in a condescending way ). So not cool.

Now the religion debate. Yeah, debate that one til the cows come home! I have an established faith, but I see much of the negativity within the walls of my church. It's quite sad.

 

[Hashi]

@Muzikluvr, you seem to be using God and religion interchangeably.

You've mentioned the idea of a "personal God" for some people, although haven't actually said what that means. To me a "personal God" would imply a personal understanding of God but perhaps you're using it to mean something else?

I also feel you're talking about Christianity rather than religion. Not all religions have one God. Some, like Buddhism, have no God. Some don't have a dualistic God (ie a separate entity from us), but believe that God is within us and we are within God. Some leave it to an individual to choose whether they want to use the word God at all.

On top of that, you seem to be talking about your local version of Christianity, which could be quite different from Christianity in some other places.

If you mean Christianity in the US or your region, I think it would be helpful to make that clear. Otherwise you're generalising something specific and it's very confusing. What you're saying may be representative of the US but that doesn't mean it's representative of the rest of world, or religion, beliefs or "God" in general.

 

[Muzikluvr]

I don't think religion makes good people do bad things.

Westboro Baptist Church

http://www.bing.com/search?q=church pickets soldiers funeral&form=APPCS1

I do believe that religion makes good people make bad decisions. This thread isn't intended to point out all the wrongs that religion has committed, nor those of any other organized social group for that matter.

When people are encouraged to ignore logic and reason and embrace their right to choose to believe something in spite of the proof against it, then it enables them to do this in other areas of their lives as well.

God is love

How do you know? And, what does that mean? My statements about connecting with others and nature are related to that. Perhaps we believe the same things, but you are invested in the rituals of church where I am not.

I have an overall sense of spirituality that guides me but in the end I make my own decisions.

I have also talked about spirituality, and am questioning what it is and if, perhaps, it is related to our need to be connected... and the fact that we are interdependent.

If not, that's cool too, but for the love of God (haha pun intended) please go find a cause to be FOR rather than being against God.

I am for Humans. As I understand it, Atheism was a label provided by theists to explain those of us who don't believe in a deity. But, atheism is not embraced by those of us who don't believe in a deity. Many of us are trying to encourage others to make more sense of the world around them, and we can see how easily they give up on logic and leave the "tough" stuff to god. Many people feel helpless, hopeless and afraid... and where do they turn? To churches, at a time when they are most vulnerable. What if they instead turned to natural explanations of what's going on around them?

What if the love and spirituality you feel, is based on the connection and interdependence of being of this world and had nothing to do with supernatural or mysticism? What if it was natural and could be strengthened by connecting with others? What if churches provide that because of their weekly gathering, and not because of the god being worshiped. What if worship wasn't necessary? What if we are missing the point? What if we are irrationally unwilling to abandon an idea that was given to us thousands of years ago, and so are prolonging our ignorance of what is really going on?

A lot of people, including myself, ignore a lot of stuff around them that they could have a positive impact on. What if people were indoctrinated with the belief that we are all connected and interdependent? What if they were also taught that there is no entity keeping tabs on who is good and who is evil? Would they hold others accountable for their actions? Would they hold themselves accountable? Would they feel compelled to act, rather than pray, to benefit others?

What would convince others to take more responsibility over their lives? Are some people convinced that nothing they do will make an impact? Do some people believe in religion, and feel exhausted by the shoulds and should nots of it? Has anyone ever felt relieved that they don't have to believe in that malarky anymore? I mean, anyone besides me and @Lucycat ? And, when you feel that relief, don't you want to share it? Don't you want to shout it, just as someone who has been "affected by the spirit of the Holy Ghost" or some such thing? I mean, when you find the answers that work for you... don't you feel the desire to share it with others... especially others who are suffering?

I do. And, if it weren't for your belief in Hell, you would say "more power to you!" Because, what is the harm in having many varied beliefs in our world, except when one group would like to kill another group because they built a building on a site that is revered by their opposing view... etc. Religion divides us.

What does it matter that you believe God is Love and I don't believe in God? You go to church and pretend that you believe God created the world in 7 days, God made Eve from Adam's rib, God is watching over us all, God is the Father, God sacrificed his only son to save us from the consequences of our sins... save us from God's judgment of our sins... why did he have his son killed for that? It matters that you support a religion that you don't fully believe because you send the message to children and adults alike, that it is real... when it's not.

People tend to believe their perspectives when they're supported by others, no matter how unrealistic their beliefs. When you support a religion that you only believe a portion of, then you support the perspectives of the radicals as much as the moderates.

The name of this thread is indicative of what will be found here. I hoped to be clear, so people who see it will know what they're getting into even before they read it. Love will not mind if I question it. Why do religions mind being questioned so much?

 

[Muzikluvr]

A personal God being defined as one which is prayed to in order to influence one's life.

I am discussing God and religion. I am asking the questions that are relevant to my life. I welcome your thoughts either in response to what is written here, or disregarding what is written here. I welcome your contribution to it. I called it a debate, because it is debatable whether there is a God or not.

I am questioning whether religion hinders us socially more than it helps us. I am also questioning whether the belief in a supernatural power and an afterlife reward/punishment are real. The fact that they may be useful in influencing others to make choices that aren't harmful to society, is part of what upsets me about religion actually. When a group of people disregard the truth so they can influence others...

Debate. Discuss. God. Religion. I don't care. I'm just tired of not having a space to ask these questions.

 

[Hashi]

Sorry, I didn't see your definition of personal God - you've posted a lot and I've tried to read it but must have missed that.

I am questioning whether religion hinders us socially more than it helps us.

My point is that you're moving between God and religion as if they are the same thing, and you don't seem to be taking into account any religion except Christian fundamentalism.

I believe that Quakerism, Shintoism and Buddhism have all helped socially far more than they have hindered. I wonder what your view is on that? Do you think they have hindered more than helped, and if so could you say why?

 

[Muzikluvr]

I believe that Quakerism, Shintoism and Buddhism have all helped socially far more than they have hindered. I wonder what your view is on that?

I will have to go educate myself on the many different religions that are helping our world. Perhaps, I am a Buddhist, born in the wrong part of the world. I am only talking about what I know, and I admit I know very little. I welcome any posts meant to educate me. I know only a little about the Christian bible; as I've discovered some of what I believed as a child, and what I hear many others repeat around me... isn't actually in the bible. Still, yes, you could say this is a debate for those who believe in the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God.

I have written a lot. I will also need to go back over it and see it. I am trying to respond to those interested in contributing to this discussion. I make no claims of having all the answers. But, I will say this, I have a real question regarding the possibility that because our DNA is 99.9% identical to every other living organism on the planet, and because we share the same elements as those found throughout the cosmos... could our spirituality be a physical connection between our atoms and the others around us?

Maybe there is a better question than "Is there a God?" or "is X religion a good one or not?"

Maybe we are ignoring some basic truths about our existence because many people have already decided what to believe, before they've even thought to ask the question. What if we have influenced someone who would otherwise lead our world in some incredibly beneficial way, to lead us into some established religion?

 

[Justmehere]

What does it matter that you believe God is Love and I don't believe in God?

This is a very good question. Ever heard of Pascal's wager?

 

[Hashi]

Actually, the "better beliefs" (my paraphrasing) that you talk about - to me, they resonate of religions like Buddhism, Shintoism and Quakerism.

They also make me think of metaphysical beliefs like interconnected energy and the idea that there's only one of us here - so if you harm another person you harm everyone, including yourself. And Jung's idea of the collective unconscious. Some people refer to God when discussing metaphysics, others don't. One metaphysical belief is that hell is the suffering we go through when we separate ourselves from God, meaning "hell" is when we separate ourselves from our oneness with the world and other people.

Buddhism doesn't have a God and Quakerism leaves it up to individuals what words they want to use. Metaphysics isn't a religion. That's why I think it would be helpful to make a distinction between God and religion (and, in fact, to add "belief").

 

[Muzikluvr]

It is good to reread what I've written. I see many assumptions of my own.

This is a very good question. Ever heard of Pascal's wager?

Pascal's wager is irrational, if you are Christian, according to the bible there are many choices you should be making in your life, not just believing Jesus is God incarnated as a human. Many Christian churches teach that simply by believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, you will be forgiven and welcomed into Heaven. But, that's not what the bible says about it... and I wonder, why did they change it? Who changed it? What authority did they have for it? Why do people believe it?

I will answer my last question. People believe what they want to believe, they will find the evidence to support it. Rarely do they continue to question an answer that suits them.

Another good question for you is "what is the harm in embracing Pascal's wager?" What if the reality is much more like this...

metaphysical beliefs like interconnected energy and the idea that there's only one of us here - so if you harm another person you harm everyone, including yourself.

or this...

Jung's idea of the collective unconscious

and none of the worshiping rituals or the praising of god's name or the restrictions on sex are relevant. What if our moral code could easily be rewritten to create a society that respects one another, based on the notions quoted, if only the people who are betting on Pascal's wager would use logic and make a decision... either believe the religion or don't believe it. Stop changing it to fit popular beliefs and start seeing it for what it is.

What if half the people on earth were more curious about what is real than willing to please a god they believe will reward them after they die? Maybe we would find many more truths about the world around us. What if locked away in the belief that to have faith in god, without proof, is the highest achievement of one's life and worthy of heavenly rewards... is someone who could find a way to travel faster than the speed of light? or could manipulate time and space? or could cure Parkinson's disease?

IMO, Pascal's wager is the highest abomination to our society! Not only isn't it what religion intended, nor is it really a belief in God; but it is also an excuse not to progress in one's thinking about society and propel us to a more reasoned one.

 

[Healing Reins]

I think we all have questions about God at some point in our lives. I have questions about God. So you guys aren't alone with your questions.[DOUBLEPOST=1400368952,1400368808][/DOUBLEPOST]I really want to say something, but I don't know what to say other than I think we all have questions about God, and that's okay. I believe as a Christian, questioning is very important. And I don't judge others who choose/cannot believe in God.[DOUBLEPOST=1400369097][/DOUBLEPOST]Also my biggest fear is that I haven't really accepted Christ, and that I will go to hell...Even though I think I will go to heaven.

I think the whole idea of heaven and hell is really scary to me personally because it's out of my control.[DOUBLEPOST=1400369297][/DOUBLEPOST]If God exists why does he let bad things happen to good people... (I hate to paraphrase it with if god exists...but..)

 

[Deleted member 1860]

How do I know that God is love? I just do. Its not one of those things I can explain or even debate. It is something you feel deep within yourself and you just know it to be true.

My sense of spirituality is 10000000% NOT based on my need to connect with other people. I speak for myself and nobody else. I know the exact moment I was first able to tap into a deep sense of spirituality, and it was literally a moment where I took a leap of faith (haha, again, pun intended), reached outside of myself (and every human connection I've ever had), and was able to tap into something that is well beyond what can be explained by humankind. There are many "religious" sayings that echo what I experienced, one being "Seek and Ye Shall FInd" (from Christian scripture) and "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear" (from Buddhism).

I think a large part is the intellectualization of God. Please, just stop. You either feel it or you don't. I was a non-believer until a few years ago, and yes, I had a lightning bolt moment when everything changed. I can't convince anyone of anything. You can seek, and you may find, but its not something where you make a pro and con list and ultimately decide one way or another. It is something you feel deep inside. I state my opinions here, but again, I think its a bit cray-cray to intellectually argue the merits of the existence of God when they aren't even in the same realm. Its like getting 2 skew lines to intersect somehow----simply put, you can't without changing the parameters of the argument. God/spirituality, over there....."rationalism", 4,592 miles to the west, and in a black hole. (Nothing meant by black hole other than to make my point that the two are never gonna meet.)

I can't even comment on anything else you say about God and religion because your opinion is based on something that is so beyond my world of experience. There are assumptions made after assumptions and its just not something I wish to wade through and pick apart. I stated my belief in three words. It really IS that simple, yet everyone wants to complicate the matter in order to pick it apart and make it collapse. Sorry, but you can't. It just is.

Oh, and I am NOT a fundamentalist. This may be where the problem lies. I can't argue or discuss anything other than the church I was brought up in (yes, brought up in, but not a firm believer until a few years ago.)

I will say this though. SO SO VERY UNCOOL that the quote above chat was changed. This is a NON-religious site, and to make such a bold statement above chat where everyone who is registered will see it is just not a good thing. I have no doubt that it will scare a newbie or two away. Can't we just put something benign there?

 

[Healing Reins]

I'm sorry if I came off the way where I was trying to convince people to believe. That wasn't at all my intentions. I apologize if my post comes off that way.