Working Through What Trust Is

[desiderata310]

So I've been busy in therapy .

small bit of background. I've been seeing my therapist twice a week for about 8 months now. This past Tuesday, just as the session was ending, he announced he wanted to move back to one session a week.

I'm not sure if he intended to wait till I was about to leave to drop a bomb or if it was just poor planning but I didn't really take this well. Actually I went mute on him. I clammed up. Couldn't get out the door soon enough.

His reasoning was because I was 'getting better' but that didn't ring true.
His reason in the past, before we worked through some things was that he was triggering me.

He asked me to send him my journal entry which I did. In it I ranted a bit about not trusting him. Actually I was furious at the time. I didn't bother to edit. I just sent it which is unusual for me.

TODAY I went back in and things were.. tough. He was frustrated with me. No, it wasn't my imagination. When people display frustation with body language it's hard to miss.

I started thinking about this. and this is a very long post to paste in here but I'm going to try to get the majority of it in. I'm wading through a lot of crap at the moment.

Comments are fine but I'm not looking for someone here to solve it.

I know he's expecting to get my journal entry from today but I don't think I am interested in sharing it.

I feel a little bullied actually...
***********
http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_zak_trust_morality_and_oxytocin#t-410819
damn you, serendipity. I opened FB to check on something and this was at the top of the news feed. REALLY, universe?

Also, it was kind of the tiniest bit triggering. Me? No, I didn't push far back from the computer screen when he went out in to the audience at the end and hugged a random stranger.
yeah. I'm shaking and crying.

Today was TRUST DAY.

and honestly, it's hours later and Im still crying at intervals about this so I may or may not be able to make it through my thoughts in one entry

So Ted Talk dude talked about Trust like it was just a matter of biology. He mentioned women who'd been abused who didn't produce oxytocin like they should. Umm....

He talked about the "bastards" or psychopathic men who didn't produce or weren't impacted by it at all.
Of course he also mentioned a spike in oxytocin when people engaged in social media. and it makes me wonder if writing (and editing and then sending to my therapist- especially the sending part) these entries doesn't qualify.

http://www.ted.com/talks/onora_o_neill_what_we_don_t_understand_about_trust

Then this lady talked about it as the fact that trust is given by other people because the first person made themselves vulnerable.

*sigh*

To hear my threapist talk about it all though Trust is a decision or a force of will that I have to fight through to get to an acceptable level.

If thats the case, the trust becomes more about how brave I can be that day in therapy. Once the stage is set, and safe, it's all about interactions. Shit. for months I've been sortingthrough a therapist who by his own admission wasn't being honest about where he was and as trying to fake it. I was picking up on that, freaking out, getting triggered and winding up having really bad flashbacks.
The last one was three weeks ago.

But it's my fault I don't trust him more. *face palm*
This makes my head hurt. It makes my chest hurt.

So ok... I looked up another definition of trust.. supposedly the "social science" version of Trust:Yeah. it's wikipedia but there's something to this...

In a social context, trust has several connotations.Definitions of trust typically refer to a situation characterised by the following aspects: One party (trustor) is willing to rely on the actions of another party (trustee); the situation is directed to the future. In addition, the trustor (voluntarily or forcedly) abandons control over the actions performed by the trustee. As a consequence, the trustor is uncertain about the outcome of the other's actions; they can only develop and evaluate expectations. The uncertainty involves the risk of failure or harm to the trustor if the trustee will not behave as desired.

ummm... abandoning control .... Doesn't sound like something I do well. I kind a feel like I got bullied today.

What he doesn't seem to get (or maybe he does) is that this is probably more than I've ever trusted because I've opened up to him about what's going on in my head and the really intensely embarrassing things that have happened. telling someone you've been left in closets by your husband is not exactly shit you share with ... anyone. ... at the same time... that has made everything feel more... terrible and raw because he does know. It hurts when I think he might tell someone or that he's judging me and suddenly it's like sitting naked in front of someone while they calmly sit there sipping their coffee asking you how you felt about that. ummm....

Then there's all the shit that happened... It's been a rough year. It just has. Everything from things like my thrapist going to court with me to things like him telling me "I know what I'm doing" while he's holding his dog down on the floor in front of me and I'm freaking out and trying to make sure he's not about to turn on me and everything imaginable in between. I KNOW I'm difficult. Most people don't bother wasting their time on me. Why my thrapist does is beyond me. .

.
I think the problem is more that my ability to trust easily broken.

What do I do there?! I fought through wanting to get up and bolt for most of the session. I KNOW I am a failure. I don't know what else to do. Dude, it's ain't for lack of trying. The fact that I was THERE today, knowing that I had sent a lot of stuff that shouldn't have been included... I mean.. that's... I think that's trust? Maybe not trust but bravery or maybe there's no difference.

ok.. he did shock me by telling me something personal about his life, in a good way. He was trying to give me an example of people who had been kind with the example of the 10 minute conversation with his 5th grade teacher when his parents divorced to encourage me to could come up with 5 people who had done a kindness to me. I have to say that I "experienced a small release of oxytocin". Or I felt a little less.. vulnerable myself. I guess because he had made himself vulnerable.

Maybe there's something there to what the Onora had to say about how trust is about being vulnerable. One thing I am acutely aware of is how powerful his position is. He knows so many terrible shameful things about me. All I ever feel is vulnerable when I walk into therapy. The example he shared disarmed me. I'm sure it made him uncomfortable but he shielded really well. He glossed quickly.

It may be a "therapeutic alliance" but there's a serious imbalance of power. I was reading this last night and yeah.. it was triggery too but I made it through... only having to stop and get up and leave it a few times.

http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/lovely-wife-psych-ward-95567

"The former (and perhaps future) patient feels trapped by paternalistic patterns."

So yeah, There is a strange dynamic that in a VERY small way echoes this dynamic. I don't know what the map looks like, let alone the road. So I lay my soul out and I step back and wait for him to pounce, or reject it or rip it to shreds and in a lot of ways I am just along for the ride. I can't even say that's his fault but I know that I sometimes resent it. I'm certainly shocked by it and I am definitely intimidated by it. And I still try to keep coming back in hopes that he's going to steer me some place safe.

It's like when I was only sleeping for a couple of hours a night a while back. I had become so accustomed to the small quantities that it just seemed... normal. When I finally admitted to it, he went so far as to make the appointment FOR ME and call the doctor to talk to him on my behalf. It was terrifying in retrospect: to know that I was so far into my own head that I couldn't see that this was bad. It felt very (and still feels) very vulnerable and unsettling. I still get a vaguely sick feeling in the pit of my stomach when I think about it or when he asks me about my sleep and nightmares.

Hi there, here's my soul, let's get in there and stomp on it, shall we? Squish it up real good.

I know I am all over the place right now.
WHY was the post-it gone??!! I was LOOKING for it. I was searching for it. I finally focused on to the door stop and held on for dear life because I WAS going away.

Am I finding it hard to say things? or am I scared? Oh god. a little of A and a little of B.

Some stuff just defies being boiled down to words. Some of it, was right there on the tip of my tongue and I just could not will them out. I would breath to speak and literally NOTHING moved. I know we spent a good 20 minutes with me trying to say 'I'm sorry I am such a brat. I'm sorry for writing such terrible things and sending them to you. I just f*cking sorry but can I just run away now because this is incredibly intense?"

I think I managed to squeak out I'm sorry, dissociated a lot and came back and cried and said it again and again. or maybe I was just thinking it really loudly.

At one point he said something about this being about abandonment issues.
oh
so that's what that is.
umm... that's embarrassing.
intensely embarrassing. Is that REALLY what it is?

I've never even thought about that being an issue. I guess that makes sense in a way but it another way it doesn't since I anticipate people leaving me. It's just a known fact that people leave. And we get back to trust.
"abandonment issues" are really just the ugly cousin of trust issues. Abandonment is really just about knowing that no one loved you in the first place. That nasty inbred little shit. Sniveling little monster with the buck teeth and eyes set just a hair too far apart, and will never be smart, it wishes it was simply a trust issue.

I'm too needy.

I think I expect him to drop me. No, I know I do. I expect him to just say, this ain't worth the time or effort. I KNOW he was frustrated. I don't care what he thought he was hiding.I know that when I don't adequately sensor what I send that he gets more than what he probably bargained.

I can't do any better than what I am doing. I can't I CANT I CANT I CANT

What the f*ck am I supposed to do? Why don't I just ... I don't know.. start showing him my cuts? I CAN'T trust someone more than i trust him now. It kind of f*cking pisses me off. What ELSE am I supposed to do? am I that broken? Do people really trust each other that much? How is that even possible?

Am I that damaged?

 

[WildMermaid]

I don't understand why your therapist wants you to show your diary. :( I'm very confused by that as people often work through sessions in writing or text and that often is not for others eyes. Personally, I would not trust someone who runs hot and cold in therapeutic setting, it seems intimate in an uncomfortable way, but maybe that is just to me. I'm sorry for your pain and frustration. By the way I never showed them the cuts (well my mom shoed one horrible therapist) and thankfully once I starting to deal with the issues underlying I stopped cutting, now they are just faded silvery scars that make me remember every day that I was stupid, I was lucky, and ultimately I just want to live. I'm thinking good thoughts for you, and to me your trust seems more valuable than how he is treating it. But then I'm not in the situation and wish you nothing but the very best.

 

[Justmehere]

@desiderata310 - I can relate to so much of what you have written. I don't even know how to put it in words. I fear/hate vulnerability. Therapy is the hardest place for me to "trust" because of the huge power/vulnerability differential. I had to start off doing group therapy where I was around other clients being vulnerable before I could do it one on one with a therapist and actually sit through the whole session and not run screaming out the door... Even then, I still have walked out of therapy a few times. It makes sense why you would feel frustrated or angry.

It is really vulnerable to face "abandonment issues." I have a friend who once said it's like the fear of "always being too much and never good enough as an inherent character of my being."

I hate even the word vulnerable.

I think you are quite brave. You are not too damaged or broken or unloveable. If you don't believe that, it's not another sign of you being too damaged.

For many years your abusive ex treated you like you were too damaged or unloveable. It takes lots of time and new data to learn a new reality.

 

[shimmerz]

Am I that damaged?

Every time something new comes up with me (attachment, original diagnosis, catatonia, the list goes on and on), I feel this way. I just articulate it differently. I call it f***ed up. I mean really, truly, I have spent my whole life building a 'normal' me. That is a ton of energy and time invested in not being f*ed. I am not at all prepared when someone touches my house of cards. I feel like it collapsing means my entire self collapsing.

I don't think you are reacting in any screwed up way. This all sounds really authentic. And raw. And terrifying. I just want to say that you are doing really well and I don't think your t would have done this unless he thought you were ready. Yes, he holds many of your secrets. Has he done anything to betray those secrets? Ah.... he dropped your appointment schedule from 2 to 1 days. Now test him -- tell him you want 2 days back again. Does he hear you?

On trust, I found this really helped me - don't know if it will help you.
Trust a liar to lie,
Trust a cheater to cheat,
Trust a doer to do
Trust a fighter to fight.

Can you go through your diaries and see what you can trust him to be? Good and bad and maybe that will be a productive thing to share with him to get to your trust issues regarding your relationship with him. Idk, just a thought.

I hope I have heard you properly. Many hugs to you my So Cal friend....:hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug:

 

[Rumors]

I have always found it particularly sad that the closest person in my life, excluding my son, I pay... I recently went through a change in that area and it made me realize how undependable relying on your therapist actually can be. They could leave, quit, move, etc and its not like you get to continue in some relationship with them. It is over... And it isn't really even a choice. Good luck in figuring that out... I wish I could help, but I am afraid that I am as well very vulnerable when it comes to trusting anyone.

 

[scout86]

They could leave, quit, move, etc and its not like you get to continue in some relationship with them. It is over... And it isn't really even a choice.

I feel compelled to point out that this is true of EVERYONE, not just therapists. It's kind of the nature of reality. Things change, people die. Nothing is guaranteed to be forever.

I did not listen to the Ted Talk because Ted Talk Guy sounds annoying beyond words!

Definitions of trust typically refer to a situation characterised by the following aspects: One party (trustor) is willing to rely on the actions of another party (trustee); the situation is directed to the future. In addition, the trustor (voluntarily or forcedly) abandons control over the actions performed by the trustee. As a consequence, the trustor is uncertain about the outcome of the other's actions; they can only develop and evaluate expectations. The uncertainty involves the risk of failure or harm to the trustor if the trustee will not behave as desired.

I kind of like that definition of "trust". The fact that it includes loss of control? Not so much! But, this is pretty much what trust means to me.

You can trust naively, like a child who doesn't know better. (Or an adult who doesn't know better.) That's one thing. You trust because it never dawns on you there might be a reason not to.

Trusting when you KNOW there might be reasons not to, now that involves courage. The better you're acquainted with all the reasons not to, to more courage is involved in the decision to trust. To do it (and I do this pretty much every time I decide to actually talk to my T) I think you need to balance both the probabilities AND the potential consequences. Not just the bad potential consequences, but the good ones too.

Then, I need to check and see what is it I'm trusting my T to do (or not do). Do I trust him to keep my information confidential? Well, he made me fill out all that paperwork. He asked my permission before he talked to my eye doc that time, even though it was obvious from the context I wanted him to. He seems pretty respectful of other people's information..... Ok so far. What if he DOES share the information? Well, honestly, in MY situation, probably nothing. Even if the whole world knew everything I've ever told him, I wouldn't like it but, in my case, I'll survive. (That wouldn't be true for everyone and there's an awful lot I haven't told him yet.) What's the up side of trusting him with information? Life can get better? And, I've seen progress in that direction. Based on all that, I decide to trust him.

I know, myself, I have a tendency to leap into paranoia given half a chance. When that happens, I tend to gloss over "What reason might he have for doing that? Well, probably NONE." And, I gloss over "What harm would it do?" And I tend to make it all about me being too stupid to know better. Which, I think, is more a form of emotional self harm than it is anything else.

I passionately HATE this springing things on people at the end of the session business! I swear they teach them that in therapist school and even the good ones never see the problem with it. The last time my T did that, his explanation was, "I've done this many times. It has to be handled differently with different people. I think YOU needed the time to think about it." Which would be FINE, if I had BEEN thinking, rather than over reacting.

Did he ask you what you thought? Did he give you a choice? Because it sounds to me like you have a perfect right to express your opinion.

One other thing that maybe figures in on "trust". People make mistakes. Sincere, good people, with the best of intentions, still make mistakes. A mistake is NOT the same thing as a lie. I guess part of the process of deciding whether or not to trust has to do with "what if they make a mistake?"

Last, but not least, I think all this oxytocin stuff is vastly over simplified. We have a whole bunch of feedback loops regulating all this. I'm pretty sure, for survival reasons, the amygdala trumps the pituitary and you aren't going to release vast amounts of oxytocin when you perceive a threat. That isn't a fault, it's set up that way for good reasons. The trick is deciding what is and what isn't a threat.

 

[Rumors]

@scout86 "I feel compelled to point out that this is true of EVERYONE, not just therapists. It's kind of the nature of reality. Things change, people die. Nothing is guaranteed to be forever."

I feel compelled to point out that not EVERYONE you share your most intimate details of life with. Also, if someone moves away it doesn't mean you can pick up the phone and call or hop in the car and visit. Those are not options with a therapist. The relationship is professional therefore if they end that, it is just that..ended... No further communication follows..the end...it is hard to trust someone and have a connection with them knowing that those ties could be cut for PROFESSIONAL reasons and not death or something extreme. Further proof that no place is safe and is subject to change even seemingly professional...

 

[scout86]

@Rumors , you're right, the professional nature of the relationship is different. I've been sitting here trying to think through the implications of that.

I guess, of the small number of people I've actually trusted as friends, there IS one I'm still in contact with fairly consistently, who lives across the country. There are also several who are dead and one or 2 who went from "good, reliable friends" to asking me to get out of their lives with no explanation. I guess I kind of expect that sort of thing and accept it as the chance you take if you DO decide to trust someone.

With a professional relationship. I honestly find it to be a bit LESS troubling, myself. You hire the person for a time and a purpose. When the purpose is accomplished, you both move on. If circumstances change before that, you make other arrangements. Now, I really like my T and I don't think he'd be at all easy to replace. But I also don't think he's going to just mysteriously walk out on me one day with no explanation. I WORRY about that now and then, but I also know that I do that because I have a problem. I believe him to be more professional than to actually do that. There are days when it isn't EASY to believe that and it's most definitely a choice.

I also know that I could walk out on him anytime I want for any reason, and that's actually somewhat more likely to happen.

As far as no contact for ever after ending therapy? I suppose that depends. I know my T hears from his past clients now and then. They like him, he likes them, and they check in from time to time to let him know how they're doing. He's ok with that. I imagine that depends on the individual.

Further proof that no place is safe and is subject to change even seemingly professional...

I'm not quite sure where to go with this. Did someone give you the impression that there IS a such thing as "safe"? Myself, I see "safety" as a relative thing. I can't imagine an absolute form of "safe" in this world. Some things are safer than others. I don't really think there's a guarantee you can trust. But I also think, for myself, the cost of not taking a chance, ever, is higher than the cost of taking chances. Something's lost and something's gained. We all have to balance the risks & benefits for ourselves.

 

[desiderata310]

Trust is a very funny and fickle thing for me. It's not easily gained and very easily broken. For me above all else it's about how safe I feel. Am I going to be abandoned? Am I going to be hurt physically, emotionally? Is that person going to look at me one day and simply say, you aren't worth my time so I am going to chuck the whole thing?

So yeah, everytime I go in, there's a part of me that is assessing the situation. It's never been a destination. I think this is my therapist's frustration with me. We got to a place a couple of weeks back where I felt... comfortable with him and yes, really started to trust him deeper. I think he thought he had arrived so he had started lobbing hard balls at me. They were all of theraputic value and they hurt but I put them up against where we were and what had been done and was able to reason with myself that they were not the bad sort of attacks. They hurt but I could see their value. They were challenging my beliefs. I figure if I feel like I got a little knocked around after a session, he's probably gone easy on me.

When the question of changing to once a week came up I was floored. I had nothing to hold on to. All of the sudden, I felt tossed overboard. I felt like I got the living shit beaten out of me.I still do. I'm trying to reason it back but it's not working.

I think his frustration hurt as much as anything. I get it. We're all human. He's not immune to human emotions. But shocked me and left me anxious and I found myself trying to do anything to make him happy in that moment.

I don't feel ready to be on my own for a week. Maybe he sees something I don't but that thought leaves me terror stricken. I have things managed so that I can make it from one touch stone to the next.

What's next? we go to once a month?!
We quit therapy?
How long till that happens?
Then the questions of WHY start and I can't even go down that path right now.
oof. I'm freaking out thinking about it. Which is stupid since I went without this...help for 99% of my life.

I'm working with a dog adoption agency right now to find a dog. As part of that I had to give him permission to talk to this person. Last night she said that when she and my therapist spoke he told her that I was the worst case he'd seen and yet I was still functional and he wasn't sure how or something to that effect. I was utterly shocked.

1. I don't think I was supposed to know that.
2. It hurts my soul to know that he thinks that about me.
3. It hurts that he spoke about me to this woman in those terms.

No, I certainly gave consent to talk to her about the service dog.

It helps clear a couple of things up and confuses and confounds others.
Does he really think he can't help me? He said he would stick with me till the end a couple of weeks ago but... people change their mind all the time.

At least he didn't say "I promise"

 

[scout86]

Trust is a very funny and fickle thing for me. It's not easily gained and very easily broken.

Yes! And I really wonder if someone who doesn't have the same issue can really appreciate what that means. I'm sure your T (and mine) get it intellectually. I suspect they're limited in how much they can really appreciate it. And, sometimes, I think that's a problem. But, maybe, sometimes anyone is going to set off the whole trust issues thing, no matter what. And, maybe, part of the therapeutic process is actually learning how to live with the uncertainty. As well as learning how to better assess the probabilities.

I think his frustration hurt as much as anything.

I'm having a hard time seeing where "frustration" comes in. Really, suggesting once a week more sounds like he sees progress, But, I think it would be fair and reasonable for you to tell him that you're not feeling that confident just yet.

What's next? we go to once a month?!
We quit therapy?
How long till that happens?

Probably a long time, huh? but that IS the end goal, right?

Last night she said that when she and my therapist spoke he told her that I was the worst case he'd seen and yet I was still functional and he wasn't sure how or something to that effect. I was utterly shocked.

OUCH!! Yeah, he probably didn't expect her to say that. But, it IS her repeating what she thought she heard him say, so who knows how accurate it it?. I'd honestly be tempted to ask him if that's really what he said. In fact, as much as I chicken out on confrontations, I really think I WOULD fire that back at him. (Just because?) But, so what if it's true? It might say more about how long he's been doing this and who he'd dealt with in the past than it says about you. And, so what because you're still managing to carry on with your life and your job in spite of that AND making progress in therapy. So what? Someone has to be "the most" what ever. Doesn't mean you're a lost cause, by any means.

he told her that I was the worst case he'd seen and yet I was still functional and he wasn't sure how or something to that effect.

Actually, it seems more likely that what he meant was that you're a pretty impressive, determined, persistent person. (Just sayin'!)

Does he really think he can't help me?

Did he SAY that?

 

[desiderata310]

No, he didn't say it but he has intimated it on a number of occasions.

THe frustration: he was very frustrated with me in our last session: exasperated sighs, "desi, I don't know what else to do, I don't want to make myself out to be a martyr but..." rubbing his brow... I can go on. All those things are pretty sure signs of frustrations.

Yes ending therapy IS the end game. I've acknowledged that on a number of occasions. I am not there but why does it feel like I'm about to be told to hit the road??!!!

Is that something he said? He's said stuff to me like: "how is it you hold down a full time job? YOu should not be functional. I thought it was an accusation of some sort! Not a comment on my current condition.

 

[scout86]

He's said stuff to me like: "how is it you hold down a full time job? YOu should not be functional

THAT'S not worded very well! Of COURSE you "should" be functional if at all possible and it's cool that you do all that you do. I'd like to think that's no more than sloppy use of words on his part. I can't, for the life of me, imagine a therapist telling a client that being functional is "wrong", You could interpret those words that way, but I just can't imagine that's what he meant.

What you're describing DOES sound frustrated. Could be frustration with himself too. And, it would be worth talking about, I think. A problem seems so much more manageable when it's actually out in the open for discussion. (Give me a week or 2 and you can fire that one right back at me! :confused:)