My Friend And Her Pastor

[anonymous]

4 months ago, I had a big falling out with a friend, that I have known for many years. She is a dear friend. I am the one who cut off the relationship.

I am conflicted about how to handle the relationship now. I would like to be good friends again, but I'm not sure I can be friends again with her yet.

One day, 4 months ago, she texted me and asked if she could come over to my place for awhile. She is living with her parents for now, and they had a big argument. I said sure. She came over and I made us dinner while she talked and vented. She was in a rough place. I was glad she was comfortable at my place and I enjoyed her company.

After a couple of hours, she decided she was ready to go home. She left and came right back. Her car had been booted. She had parked it in the residents only parking lot.

I live in an apartment complex. try to remind any visitors to my place to not park in the parking lot, but out on the street. If someone who is not a resident parks in the parking lot without the required pass, they get booted. (For those that may not know, this is an alternative to towing the car. The "boot" on the care locks a wheel in place and makes it impossible to drive home. The landlord's parking monitor leaves a note to call them and for a hefty $100 fee, they will unboot the car.)

I live near a university where parking is limited, so they watch the parking lot like hawks.

I take responsibility to remind any guests of mine to not park in the parking lot. I figure they are my guests, my visitors, and I know the signage is really small and hard to see....

Another friend was booted when they were helping me move in, and the parking services folks easily waived the fee once I validated my friend was not student trying to use our parking lot as an alternative to university parking.

Anyhow, back to the friend I had the falling out with...

I told my friend who got booted that I would call the parking services company and see what could be done. She did not object at all. She took no action to solve it herself either.

I went outside to see where the signs were in regards to where my friend had parked. I felt bad I had not reminded her to not park in the parking lot, and that she was delayed in getting home. I saw the sign and on top of everything else, it was covered by a tree. I finally got through to a parking services rep and we were talking about having the boot removed for free since the sign was covered by a tree. He was giving me his email address to send a pic of the sign, right at the moment that my friend came out.

She started talking to me telling me to not bother trying to fix the problem, "this is not your problem to solve." She was mostly right, but I still wanted to solve it - and I was solving it. He had offered his email address and to waive the fee as soon as he had the picture... I just had to get the full email address and I couldn't hear him while she talked at the same time too.

I told her, "I'm on the phone, I can talk to you when I'm off the phone."

I have no idea what she said next, except that she said the word ridiculous, and she kept talking and talking. I tried to walk away and listen to the guy on the phone. He started laughing, saying "I didn't realize your friend doesn't agree and thinks you are being ridiculous." I asked for his email and I began to get upset.

I was walking down the street, and my friend was following me, and the parking services guy now anything but helpful. He was quite rude and demeaning.

I hung up on him.

My friend railed into me. She told me I had no right to call them. I told her she made no effort to call them, interrupted me and "you humiliated me in front of the people I rent my home from."

I was shaking. I knew I was triggered and I kept walking away from my apartment, from her, and she kept following me. I told her to leave me alone, stop talking to me... She wouldn't. She kept saying things - frankly, I don't remember what she said very well. I remember feeling humiliated and like she thought I was not able to do much and an embarrassment to her. I'm not sure if she really actually felt that way or not.

I did know I was way too triggered to talk.

I remember telling her to please go away, she was welcome to wait in my apartment where it was warm, but I was going for a walk.

She wouldn't leave me alone so I went back to the apartment. She yelled at me about how it was wrong for me to "start a problem" with parking services and I kept yelling at her to "stop" and "just leave me alone." I grabbed my warmest jacket and left my apartment again.

Or I tried to leave.

As I tried to close the door behind me, and she pulled the door open, if she was coming to follow me. The door never actually fully closed. I was on the outside and she was on the inside. I tried to pull the door shut with all my weight for about 20-30 seconds, until she pulled it open again. She was smiling when she opened the door. "What? You are going to commit felony false imprisonment now?" She seemed calm and she was smiling as she said this.

I screamed at her to "get the hell out of my apartment. Get out!"

She left. I texted her and told her to not contact me again at this time, and I would contact her when I was ready. I slammed the door behind her. I went numb and eventually ended up in the ER in a suicidal crisis that night.

2 months later, I reached out to her. I asked if we could net to talk. She said she would rather communicate on email for now. I said ok, and I apologized for all my mistakes and errors. Everything from trying to solve the problem of the parking ticket to keeping the door closed. (She said it was only 10 seconds. Eh. Whatever.) I told her I had worked on these things on a deep level and I was taking steps to change. I didn't say anything about being friends or not. It was an apology, an attempt to make amends.

She replied to say that my apology surprised her, wasn't what she expected, and restored her faith in humanity.

She asked if we would meet up to talk, and I said sure. I suggested maybe we find a safe third party friend. She offered to ask her pastor, whom I have met. I said ok. I don't share the same exact beliefs, but I have seen them both step into difficult relationship situations and resolve them without being preachy or weird.

Or so I thought. My friends said she would see when a good time to meet was for the pastor. In the meantime, she sent another message saying. "You should go to (event at the church)..."

She had invited me to other things, and I'm of the same faith, just don't believe in some of the things this group does. But sometimes I have gone to their events...

The words "you should..." hurt. We were not even on terms of communicating outside of email and already my friend was telling me what I should do. (The event happened to be about healing emotional wounds and my friend knows I have ptsd.)

I declined the invite, and explained I'm not interested in those kinds of events at this time. I'm working on recognizing that I'm capable and ok, just as I am.

She took it well, as far as I can tell.

A month later. my friend emailed me to say her pastor was back in town and sent me some times they could meet.

She also sent the pastor and I an agenda for the meeting. My friend wants us to both "share what triggered us and have a chance to be heard and validated" and to talk about what we need going forward.

She said she had talked to her therapist and they suggested we go ahead and plan on meeting a second time so we can "process anything that came up the first time."

Then she asked her pastor for assurances that we would be meeting at the church and that it would be a private meeting. She also asked for our input on what our needs are for the meeting.

I shut down.

I am not ok with meeting at the church - I had hoped we would meet at a coffee shop like I knew they had done in the past for other situ Not ideal, but it is "neutral" ground. I also am not ready to commit to a second meeting.

Even more than all of that, the language of sharing triggers and validating another person's triggers...

My triggers feel personal. private, and my responsibility to manage. Her triggers? I can listen. I don't know if I can validate them for her or not. And her therapists suggestions? Um, that just feels weird... I'm glad that she talked to her therapist and I feel guilt for what I did, but I don't know how to handle hearing of her therapists suggestions.

I struggle with churches, pastors, therapists.

I was up for a meeting with my friend and I, with another friend there to just be there...

Now?

I feel like I'm being used. I can't explain it. My friend is much more excited and invested in meeting up.

I would like to be friends again, maybe. We have been friends through thick and thin for many years. I think 15 years. She has been a very safe friend in the past.

Now, I feel like I'm caught in something that is off kilter somehow. I don't know how. Maybe I'm simply trying to avoid my own guilt and shame.

I have never become so angry as to try to hold a door closed or do anything other than yell at someone. I'm not sure why I did that. I meant no harm to her. I wanted her to leave me alone. I also wanted to close the door and leave. I was apparently willing to use force.

She did a lot of things wrong, but nothing she did excuses my behavior. I already told her this.

I don't know what to do. I already told her I couldn't meet "you and your pastor" at the church, but I was willing to meet at a coffee show nearby.

What do I do?

 

[deer_in_headlights]

Wow! What a story! You give me goosebumps!

I think, above all, you should follow your gut.

With her arranging everything, and wanting it on Church property, my gut is saying that's too much of a set-up. Hooray for you for saying "No" to this.
I think with your bending over backward to apologize and make amends, my personal reaction to the set-up meeting is to put herself on top, (validating her and invalidating you comes to mind). Just a guess, but she might have difficulty with needing to be highly self-righteous.

Your alarm bells going off sound right-on target:
She wants to be validated by you and everyone in authority, and learn your personal triggers? No way! How personal and intrusive!
I think now, it would be dangerous to you for these people to know more of your triggers and personal details that she and her team could pressure you to divulge.

I think you've rightly apologized, for your part; I also think you've PTSD'd over-apologized in order to defuse the anger and tension.
She has a different mind-set - for her to violate your boundaries the way she did, also the way she implied at the time (with a smile) that she could have you arrested on a very serious charge of imprisonment makes her sound more messed up than you could ever be - and NOT a safe person.

I agree with your deep concern, and I wouldn't blow it off. There is wisdom here - I believe you need to take steps to keep yourself safe. This doesn't sound safe, at all. I don't know if any meeting like this would be safe for you, at this point. It would be helpful if you had back-up from people who understand boundary-breaking, controlling relationships and who are willing to stand with you and block out-of-bounds surprises and/or help you protect yourself.

Please don't overapologize - you were right in ordering her to leave. For her to ignore your continual requests and push you into desperation to protect yourself, is not just the hallmark of a difficult person with disregard for boundaries, but I would say she acted just like an abusive bully "friend" I've suffered far too long with (and finally parted from - for good, and with immense relief). This was a friend I met in church.

Messed up people are in church congregations all the time, some seeking healing, others seeking vulnerable people to manipulate, exploit and control. I'm not saying she is one, but eyes open, dear and listening to your intuition are gifts given to you for you to be able to protect yourself. With PTSD, you might need more protection than non-traumatized people. Vulnerable people also give out signals that subconsciously attract abusive people, even in church congregations. (I picked up a homicidal stalker in a church.). They're not usually bad places, just not necessarily as safe as everyone assumes they are.

There is more, but I need to stop for now. I'm actually shaking. You are so much like me, you're a kindred spirit. My response is a mild version of what a beloved trauma therapist has said to me. She would be very blunt about the non-safe friend.

With deep concern,
Deer

P.S. Personally, I'd say I felt uncomfortable with meeting now (no details). That I need some quiet time to reflect on the situation. That I care very much about her and our friendship, but am very concerned about how both of us responded in the situation, and don't feel comfortable with the current arrangements. I wish her well, and hope someday this will lead to a different, safer and better friendship.

(The friend I left, I said I have loved her like a sister, and always will, but I can't be back in her life because she isn't safe for me, or my well-being. Love and prayers, etc.. Which I meant - I love her, care about her, but she is very not safe! She always complained she couldn't keep friends, so it's not just me and my "flaws" or vulnerabilities. She is also a very active and highly visible church member.)

P.P.S. It's interesting that she comes from a background where there is heavy and intense fighting. She did nothing to diffuse the tension, she was escalating the problem. Some people really feed off of upsetting other people to breaking points, smiling when they've pushed someone to or beyond their limits, and looking like the "healthy one". It's an ego boost for them, and you can feel like you've been hit by a train you never expected or saw coming because it's all so irrational (she didn't want you to solve the boot problem and fee?) She discharged a lot of her aggression and anger on you.

 

[Changing4Best]

I would simply stick to what you agreed to, not to meet at the church, but at the coffee shop. I'd furthermore express that you are not willing to discuss going to her church, as you have your own preferences in churches. That should cover it. I hope and pray that it all works out for you. She seems like she is a good friend to keep.

 

[scout86]

Calling to try to get the car released without charge was a nice thing to do, IMO. I would have appreciated it. I don't understand why your friend didn't appreciate it.

From that point on...... you were reacting to your friend's behavior. Sounded like a "PTSD thing" to me. Since your friend knows you have PTSD, it would have been nice if she'd handled it differently. Maybe she has issues of her own that got in the way. Getting together to talk about things sounds like a good idea.

If it was me, I wouldn't be comfortable with the set up. Because it SOUNDS like a set up. That could just be me, being paranoid. But it sounds like she and the pastor have talked about this and might have some kind of agenda. Probably well intentions and all that, but it sounds way too complicated.

As far as I'm concerned, what you did with the door wasn't a big deal. You were angry. She wouldn't back off. Both of you could have handled it better, but stuff happens. You apologized. That's enough. Again, if it was me, I'd tell her the meeting sounded way to complicated. That I'd be glad to meet her over coffee, with another friend, even the pastor, but not at the church and no promises for the future until after we see how the meeting goes.

Good luck!

 

[anonymous]

Original poster here. Thanks to everyone who has replied. My friend emailed back and said she didn't make it to church this morning but that she would ask the pastor tomorrow about meeting at the coffee shop. "We'll figure something out."

Right. Um. It feels like she is expecting this pastor to lead the whole thing. I didn't sign up for that.

I'm really concerned she was smiling when she said I was committing a felony. That's not a matter to smile about. Period. My friend isn't the kind of person who would intentionally set me up and it would be out of character for her to file charges. She hates the police, thinks they are corrupt, and etc. But it is possible, and it's a serious statement to make.


It still does feel like a set up. I think she could easily get focused on some kind of idealized healing process without stopping to think about others not being where she is at.

The validation part especially feels bad. I won't likely be able to validate her "perspective" on what happened that night. It is what it is. I'm not in her shoes. She probably can't validate my perspective. I'm not even sure what validating someone's perspective on the events around a heated argument means.

She has been a very good friend for a long time, and she has weathered a lot of my PTSD symptoms and even been by my side when I have been reeling from trauma. I want to be gracious to her, but the more I think about all of this, the more shut down I get.

 

[joeylittle]

I think I have a different take on this, so hopefully, there will be something useful in it.

The words "you should..." hurt. We were not even on terms of communicating outside of email and already my friend was telling me what I should do. (The event happened to be about healing emotional wounds and my friend knows I have PTSD.)

Honestly, I would give her a pass on this. People really aren't as conscious with their language as we always wish they were - and anyone who has spent any time in therapy will likely be more sensitive to certain phrases than the average person - I know I am. I think you are extrapolating that her wording was deliberate in an attempt to be controlling or minimize you, and I'm suggesting that it was just bad wording.

Then she asked her pastor for assurances that we would be meeting at the church and that it would be a private meeting. She also asked for our input on what our needs are for the meeting.

I shut down.

I am not ok with meeting at the church - I had hoped we would meet at a coffee shop like I knew they had done in the past for other situ Not ideal, but it is "neutral" ground. I also am not ready to commit to a second meeting.

OK. And these are all perfectly fine things for you to communicate. She asked for your input - and I do know you gave it, that you would prefer a coffee shop and/or any other kind of neutral ground. The second meeting, I think is maybe for her benefit in some way that I can't quite see (although I get the logic of it) - but if you are thinking optimistically, a second meeting would be a possible next step. You may decide after the first meeting that you don't want a second one, and that's fine too.

A lot of successful interpersonal communication involves compromise, and I would suggest that this particular thing is not hard to compromise on, because you have an opportunity to reverse yourself later, if you so choose. To me, that's not lying - that's understanding how to give someone something they are requesting, knowing that I am nervous about it but it won't actually do me any harm to say yes, because it's not happening yet, and I don't have enough information to say 'no'.

My triggers feel personal. private, and my responsibility to manage. Her triggers? I can listen. I don't know if I can validate them for her or not. And her therapists suggestions? Um, that just feels weird... I'm glad that she talked to her therapist and I feel guilt for what I did, but I don't know how to handle hearing of her therapists suggestions.

People mean different thing when they say 'trigger'.

If she had said 'let's talk about what set you off, and what set me off, and make an effort to understand each others' experience' - would you be feeling as nervous? A little mental health knowledge is a dangerous thing...I'm not sure she's by default saying you need to communicate what happened in your past that made you react to her talking over you while you were on the phone. What set you off was that you were helping, you thought - and were inches away from a solution, and then she was angry and talking over you and it was upsetting. it's not a 'trigger', it's 'what set you off'.

I think you could just ask, "by triggers, do you mean what set us both off, making us upset?". I'd lay money the answer will be "yes".

I would like to be friends again, maybe. We have been friends through thick and thin for many years. I think 15 years. She has been a very safe friend in the past.

This is the part to hold onto. Friends are hard to make, and longevity matters. I don't know what you actually have to lose here. You were awesome and brave and reached out - she's trying to reach out too. Sometimes reaching out gets clumsy. But you also have to let her have her actions while you have your own, and keep breathing through the moments of compromise.

 

[joeylittle]

I won't likely be able to validate her "perspective" on what happened that night. It is what it is. I'm not in her shoes. She probably can't validate my perspective. I'm not even sure what validating someone's perspective on the events around a heated argument means.

Yes you can. Again, big mental health words, simple concept.

Validate means to hear what someone is expressing, and confirm that you've heard it, and that you can imagine how it is true. Nothing to do with whether you think it was right or wrong.

When someone experiences pain - even if you haven't felt it, literally - you can put yourself in their shoes and confirm their experience. I've never been in your story, but I know that if someone would have started talking over me angrily when I was just about to solve something - I would have burst into tears. you didn't do that, you walked away and kept trying to solve the problem - I can also imagine you doing that, and I can validate how tug-of-war it must have felt.

ALL THAT MATTERS for validation is that person A express their experience. So, I'm guessing you felt rising tension when you were caught in the middle of those two conversations, and that's what I'm 'validating'.

It's hard to do when someone is harder to understand - but if you leave judgement off the table, and really listen, it's almost always possible.

 

[StellaBlue]

I agree with @joeylittle, it is possible to validate her experience. To me, that validation look like "I can see where it makes sense that you felt this way or reacted this way" (and it certainly does not mean you agree with it).

That said, I can see how this proposed talk appears to be snowballing and is causing you anxiety (see how I validated you there ;)). I would be a little taken aback by her pastor (even if you have met him) being present and her therapist, while not physically there,definitely having been consulted.

I think it's great you want to make repairs and continue the friendship. To me, this path is starting to look a lot like a therapy session (and her therapy session, not yours).

Can you figure out what would make you more comfortable in meeting with her? Reading between the lines, I sense that you feel like her pastor would be taking her side (you said it feels like a "set up") - Would it be having a different friend there? Would it help to have an "escape plan"? Would it help to set out ground rules - for example, we can talk about what happened at my apartment, what I felt and did, but we're not going to go digging into my trauma triggers?

My concern is that if the original event with the car escalated to the point that you ended up in the ER, your most important job is to keep yourself safe.

 

[scout86]

It still does feel like a set up.

I wasn't thinking about the possibility of her pressing charges. I'm sure you're right, it's not likely she'd do that and she probably wouldn't do it this way.

What I was thinking about was more something like an experience I had with my ex-husband. He had been married before and it was a difficult divorce. (He was also a narcissist & an accomplished liar, but I didn't know that for several years.) He wanted premarital counseling. I was less than enthused, but agreed, just to be agreeable. When we got there, there were a few things I wanted to discuss. It turned out that he knew the gentleman we were seeing, and knew how things were going to go. Anything I brought up was treated as "my problem", because I was the one who had the problem with it. That experience is probably coloring my view of your situation.

My concern is that if the original event with the car escalated to the point that you ended up in the ER, your most important job is to keep yourself safe.

I'm a little concerned about that too. And that's my concern with the fact that your "neutral party" isn't really neutral, but is someone she knows well and has discussed this with. Does your friend know what happened after she left that night?

 

[Deleted member 1860]

I say kick her ass to the curb.

Just did so myself with a long term 20+ year friend. Please do NOT use the excuse that this person has been your friend for so long. The only constant in this world is change, and just because someone was your friend before doesn't mean that they are now. Its crazy making to keep old friends around just because you've known them for forever. If you need reasons to keep her around, make them CURRENT reasons, not past reasons.

It gets my goat when people don't respect my boundaries, and she's walking ALL over yours, from not leaving you alone when you asked her to, to meeting up with this pastor when you don't feel comfortable. Did she ASK you if you wanted a therapy session to resolve the issues? If not, then what's her deal? I totally understand why you did what you did with the door thing, and I say 'DON'T APOLOGIZE!' Why? Because your action was a RE-action. You were protecting yourself. This bitch kept coming AT you and AT you and AT you.....you were defending yourself and your own safety. Its like beating the crap out of an animal and then saying the animal needs to be put down because it attacked you. *rolls eyes*

Yeah, I have a lot of personal bias and my reply comes from this. But what tipped the scales for me was the diabolical way she asked you about imprisonment and smiled. That's SICK! I get the feeling she's got some hidden issues. You know, nice to certain people when she can put up a facade.....but the truth comes out at some point. I think that shows her "truth".

Take what I say with a grain of salt. But....with PTSD, the LAST thing you need is someone who doesn't respect your boundaries and give you space when you need it. I also think its sick that she wouldn't accept your help, and turned it into you making her look bad in front of other people. OMG, such a "me, me, me, its ALLLL about ME!" person.....Nauseating.

 

[KwanYingirl]

While I was reading your story, my PTSD mind kicked in and I experienced the chain of events in snapshots, like I do with many stressful situations. I usually miss some key points and facts, but just the truth of it made me feel afraid for you. I really thought she was provoking you while you were simply trying to save her $100. I've been booted, and boy would I have loved someone to step in and make the problem disappear.
Like you, I felt increasingly uptight as she would not stop provoking you. I've had a man do that to me while I was helping his ex wife retrieve her property. It was unnerving.
So what to do? Why can't just the two of you meet for coffee and discuss it at least for a start. Seriously, if the two of you after 15 years can't have a calm discussion then I'd walk away. Bringing her Pastor reeks of control not validation. You can go to a mediator who is neutral to both parties.
I also understand how humiliated you felt talking to the apartment manager. Granted she has her issues too, you get to decide if she gets a pass or not. Why couldn't she let you talk on the phone and simply solve the boot issue? That was the original trigger that just kept being fueled. IMO you sound like you just wanted her to STOP. I'm so sorry you had to experience this.did she ever say thank you for cooking her dinner?

 

[anonymous]

What you all are writing about validation makes a lot more sense to me now. That is something I can do! Thank you for helping me see it in a different way. It's a huge "ah-ha" moment for me.

After reading your posts, I told my friend and her pastor about my boundaries for meeting. I am also thinking a lot about healthy compromise. This is something I could grow in. I do care for this friend. Healthy relationships involve some give and take. She and her pastor have been flexible and easily agreed to meet in a different location that I was more comfortable with.

I'm also thinking through what are the boundaries I would need to move forward, and how am I going to keep them. I'm especially thinking of solid boundaries in some things so that I can compromise in other ways.

I'm also keeping in mind that this was a big event. She really broke my trust. It may or may not be repairable. I'm going to be careful and perhaps avoid saying anything about the accusations around the door. I'm also giving myself permission to walk away from meeting if it goes off the rails or feels really bad. I don't need to own anything more than my own part.

I'm scheduled to meet my friend and her pastor this afternoon in about an hour. I'm really thankful for the time you all took to respond and help me consider this from number of different perspectives.