I Am Not 'they'

[stillstanding2]

So it is partly just an English problem, perhaps?

Is there a linguist in the house? My knowledge of other languages is limited, but at least the Latin-derived languages divide nouns and pronouns even more by gender. Perhaps this global membership can offer an effective neutral pronoun that we can accept, but I doubt it.

Thoughts and words seem so tightly bound as to both define and restrict each other. It is sometimes frustrating, even futile, to find the exact word to use for a thought.

Unfortunately, some people try to solve the problem by adding syllables, as is done by bureaucracies (like the Pentagon). That wordiness obscures meaning, which is handy among fuzzy thinkers, but leaves the rest of us laughing at them.

The medical/scientific fields turn to ancient Greek and Latin for a wider choice of descriptors among themselves, but the typical person does not know the "dead" languages. So I think the "problem" lies in any language I know of.

 

[Stickler]

http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/24165/

So " Ze" (I like Ze, it's dashing), hir, xe...My guy jokingly suggested Misster...
( Somehow I wound up falling for a flaming cisgender heterosexual guy. He is very glad I'm probably not going to do testosterone. Note I said probably. I don't want to go bald. Anyway...)

 

[rightkindofme]

Err, I minored in linguistics.

I use they frequently as first person singular pronoun. I have never really liked the more 'created' singular pronouns. I have known people who have identified with Ze, Hir, Sie, etc, but they just.... don't roll off my tongue.

So yeah. I mentioned upthread that this is a thing. Yup, it is a real thing.

It is interesting to me that folks on this thread were very angry about a medical person using the term they instead of a gendered pronoun. In my little world that is being polite instead of making an assumption you shouldn't be making based on someone's looks.

I had an interesting conversation on NYE with my neighbor. She is a very devout Christian. Incredibly conservative. Her daughter is my babysitter, otherwise we probably wouldn't hang out. She came to my party. She met my friends. She had to pull me into another room to say, "Oh my god. Who is a boy and who is a girl? How do you tell who is dating who? Is that two women together!? Is one of them pregnant?! How do they do that?! Is that person with the pink hair male or female!?"

My comment was, "If you want to know the answer to those questions you are going to have to ask. Because that's personal data you can't get from scanning people. Yes, my friend with pink hair will be ok if you say, 'I really don't mean to be rude, but I am not sure what pronouns to use.'"

As it turns out, my friend with pink hair? Their pronoun is they. They do not state a gender and if you aren't getting in their pants it is none of your business.

It was an educational night for her. :)

 

[stillstanding2]

It is interesting to me that folks on this thread were very angry about a medical person using the term they instead of a gendered pronoun.

It's a matter of context. In our case it was a burnt-out nurse using "they" referring to, and within earshot of, my dying wife. She was describing to us possible further agonies ahead. It was as if she regarded my wife as already gone.

 

[shimmerz]

We aren't actually talking just linguistics here. That would be petty. Argumentative and without rational thinking.

We are talking about how 'grouping' people into them and me can dehumanize and objectify. In groups and out groups can lead to the justification of horrendous deeds or ignorance of other's needs for safety or dignity. The first step for a supporter of ANYONE who is being generalized, is to aid in 're-humanizing' sufferers. Not putting them into a 'they group'. We are, in fact, all human and deserve to be treated as such.

An interesting article on how the brain can learn to dehumanize others (even ourselves) and the fallout of that. I should know. I have been working for 10 damned years in an attempt to re-humanize myself. Probably why, at this point in time, I have made a statement that I don't like being part of a 'they' vs. 'us' grouping that seemed to be a part of the thread I am referring to in this posting. The last paragraph, in particular, was very enlightening for me. I was dehumanized. Over and over and over again. Recognizing that people do this.... helps me to understand that it isn't BECAUSE of me that this happened to me.

I plan on taking a social psychology MOOC as I find this very applicable to my situation.
For anyone interested....
http://www.pbs.org/the-brain-with-david-eagleman/episodes/why-do-i-need-you/

 

[Stickler]

Well, yeah...since I don't know which post you're talking about, I can't tell whether it was ' they as use of neutral pronoun' versus ' they as othering'

'Othering' is a much bigger deal.
https://therearenoothers.wordpress.com/2011/12/28/othering-101-what-is-othering/

 

[shimmerz]

Why can't They Fight Fair

Is the posting that I was referring to.

 

[shimmerz]

'Othering' is a much bigger deal.

To my mind of thinking this is the same thing. Is there a difference that I am not picking up on @Stickler?

 

[Stickler]

@shimmerz yes.

For instance, if you were referring to myself to a third party, and you said " They like to eat chocolate," you would be stating truth. I like to eat chocolate.

If you said, "Those stinky-footed people, well you KNOW how they are "...You would be 'othering' said stinky-footed people.

 

[shimmerz]

And from what I picked up from the posting it was
'Those PTSD'ers are violent' That, to me, is othering. If it stated 'my PTSD'er' is violent, it would not fall under the 'othering' category. I would not have picked up on it. The word 'they' was used 4 or more times in the posting.

 

[Stickler]

Yes. Then the poster you stated the thread about WAS othering us PTSD peeps.
Maybe they will hang around a bit and learn something.

Regarding being othered? I came out as queer in Texas in 1992, I'm a genderqueer, mutiply mentally ill, mostly-vegan pagan social-democrat...still in Texas....I think I read the posting you read; I just am so used to being othered that I'm all like...whatever, dude...

The mentally ill in general are depicted as being violent; that's probably why United States cops tend to shoot mentally ill people when called to deal with the mentally ill? We nutters are more statistically likely to be crime *victims* than perps...presumably it's the so-called sane people coming after us, yes?

Anyway...
I'm not violent, though I have that potential.
Much like a Tuck's hemorrhoid pad, I'm medicated for your protection.

Mental illness of ANY kind isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card in a relationship anyway.
I have been known to flip out when new recall's coming and can have no idea why I am doing it...thus re-traumatizing my guy. My attachment issues...similar.
My fault, my apologies to make, my stuff to fix.
My guy makes suicide attempts while psychotic, thus traumatizing me/us...his one alter has come out and been an asshole to me too, and ( like me with my own alts ) my guy is responsible for what his alters do.
Responsible in the sense of "ability to respond." if I can't get a handle on my own brain cooties, who the hell can?
I won't always be able to perfectly control myself,but because I do not want to pain my loved ones? I will do my very best.
...None of my beloveds have an obligation to stay in my life; having them with me is a privilege.

Personally? I think if someone hits you more than once? It is almost certainly time to end the relationship for your own mental health and safety. A batterer does not " lose control." They give themselves permission.
That's not a failure of self-control. That is a moral and empathy deficit.
...When I was little and getting smacked around, I used to think my parents lost control of themselves when they did so.
In retrospect, neither of them ever hit me in public or in front of anyone else.

If someone only " loses control," in private, that ain't a loss of control, that's letting the demons out to play. On you. You need to get gone from that person.

 

[stillstanding2]

If someone only " loses control," in private, that ain't a loss of control, that's letting the demons out to play. On you. You need to get gone from that person.

Ahh! That was a big factor in why I rid myself of my last long-term relationship. To this day, I think some people we both know believe that I must have been very hard to get along with, since "she is so sweet." I had come to fear for my own sanity and safety in dealing with her diagnosed borderline personality. She aimed her rages only at me