News £500,000 Payout For Museum Boss Over Mental Trauma

[cherryblossom]

£500,000 payout for museum boss over mental trauma of paramedics arriving 17 minutes late when she dislocated knee on the bus home

Paramedics arrived 17 minutes late to treat her leg, and Mrs Leigh developed post-traumatic stress disorder as a result

I literally stumbled across this on facebook, and couldn't quite believe it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...17-minutes-late-dislocated-knee-bus-home.html

Am I missing something obvious? How was this woman even diagnosed with PTSD? How does her situation fit with Criterion A?

Criterion A outlines events that are considered traumatic enough for a PTSD diagnosis, which include but not limited to, war as a combatant or civilian, threatened or actual physical assault (robbery, mugging, physical attack, childhood physical abuse), threatened or actual sexual violation (forced sexual penetration, alcohol / drug-facilitated sexual penetration, abusive sexual contact, noncontact sexual abuse, sexual trafficking), being kidnapped, taken hostage, terrorist attack, torture, prisoner of war, natural or man-made disasters, medical (waking during surgery, anaphylactic shock) and severe motor vehicle accidents.

Whilst every conceivable type of trauma is impossible to list, the DSM clearly outlines a pervasive pattern of extreme violence or abnormal event not considered normal within life. Normal death, life threatening illness, debilitating medical illness, relationship breakdowns and other stressors considered part of normal life, are not necessarily considered a traumatic event by definition for PTSD. These lesser events are covered under other diagnoses, such as Adjustment Disorders, where a single stressor is responsible.

I also don't understand how an ambulance can arrive 17 minutes late. Having worked as a paramedic in the UK for 17 years, I really don't understand what they mean by 'late'. Did she pre-book an ambulance? Yes, the ambulance service has targets, and all calls are categorised and responded to according to priority. I also know that people often wait longer than they would like, but isn't the ambulance service in place for life threatening emergencies. A dislocated knee would surely be a very low priory compared to someone having a heart attack or a stroke, or a child choking. I really don't understand how they define 'late'.

I'm just curious if anyone has any thoughts on this.

 

[tillybee]

It is impossible for an ambulance to be late surely - they aren't taxi's.

Working for the health service and how many cut backs I've seen, I would say she was lucky at 17 minutes.

Also in Wimbledon, a very busy part of the country, traffic would surely be a factor?.

As to her trauma, I'm not sure. I don't think I'm qualified to comment. Although the symptoms seem diabolical for a dislocated knee.

 

[Loner]

I was under the impression a dislocated knee, by definition, can only happen with a complete tear of EVERY major ligament in the knee, which is extremely unlikely, if not impossible, from a simple fall. I guess its possible, but that kind of physical trauma is usually reserved for high speed crashes downhill skiing or on a motorcycle.

Also, I guess I can see this meeting the criteria for PTSD, but even so, its not the paramedics fault. Should I sue child protective services cus no one ever did anything about my parents? Or the shrink i got sent to as a kid who didn't see what was happening with them despite all the textbook symptoms I displayed?

 

[digger]

has any thoughts on this.

I have thoughts on it.....I don't think there are enough expletives to cover it though...

 

[Lucycat]

I just read it and it does say the ambulance took 50 minutes so I think you are probably right that 17 minutes late must mean beyond their target.

Yes, I agree in that I do not understand where/how this leads to PTSD.

Also the dislocated knee caused the requirement for an ambulance. Why not sue the dislocated knee - or the bus company - or maybe her shoe manufacturer?[DOUBLEPOST=1393166838][/DOUBLEPOST]I would like the half million....

 

[tillybee]

I have thoughts on it.....I don't think there are enough expletives to cover it though...

Well this is what I wanted to say! However, being a newbie I waited for someone else to do it for me!

You have made me laugh!

 

[cherryblossom]

In my job, I've seen many dislocated knee's from low impact trauma, so I don't really question the fact that the injury happened. I do wonder a bit more about the cause like @Lucycat has questioned, as to whether the bus company could be at fault.

@Loner I'm really interested to understand how this meets criteria for PTSD? Can you help me understand?

 

[Loner]

I could see being in a great deal of physical pain while being physically restrained by strangers to be very alarming, although I would be very surprised if it caused PTSD. I could see it could be triggering if she already had had some traumatic events in her life, especially childhood.

Am I wrong about a dislocated knee requiring a complete tear of all major ligaments?

 

[Hashi]

In the UK, PTSD isn't defined by the DSM but by the International Classification of Diseases (ICD). I think this gives more scope for interpretation (or misinterpretation), especially if you have a good lawyer and a not so good judge. I'm sure her knee was painful but... exceptionally threatening or catastrophic?

International Classification of Diseases (ICD) – 10[1]
Chapter V[2]
Mental and behavioural disorders 
(F00-F99)
Neurotic, stress-related and somatoform disorders 
(F40-F48)

F43.1 Post-traumatic Stress Disorder
Arises as a delayed or protracted response to a stressful event or situation (of either brief or long duration) of an exceptionally threatening or catastrophic nature, which is likely to cause pervasive distress in almost anyone. Predisposing factors, such as personality traits (e.g. compulsive, asthenic) or previous history of neurotic illness, may lower the threshold for the development of the syndrome or aggravate its course, but they are neither necessary nor sufficient to explain its occurrence. Typical features include episodes of repeated reliving of the trauma in intrusive memories ("flashbacks"), dreams or nightmares, occurring against the persisting background of a sense of "numbness" and emotional blunting, detachment from other people, unresponsiveness to surroundings, anhedonia, and avoidance of activities and situations reminiscent of the trauma. There is usually a state of autonomic hyperarousal with hypervigilance, an enhanced startle reaction, and insomnia. Anxiety and depression are commonly associated with the above symptoms and signs, and suicidal ideation is not infrequent. The onset follows the trauma with a latency period that may range from a few weeks to months. The course is fluctuating but recovery can be expected in the majority of cases. In a small proportion of cases the condition may follow a chronic course over many years, with eventual transition to an enduring personality change (F62.0).

F43.1 Post-traumatic stress disorder
Diagnostic Criteria [3]

A. Exposure to a stressful event or situation (either short or long lasting) of exceptionally threatening or catastrophic nature, which is likely to cause pervasive distress in almost anyone.

B. Persistent remembering or "reliving" the stressor by intrusive flash backs, vivid memories, recurring dreams, or by experiencing distress when exposed to circumstances resembling or associated with the stressor.

C. Actual or preferred avoidance of circumstances resembling or associated with the stressor (not present before exposure to the stressor).

D. Either (1) or (2):

(1) Inability to recall, either partially or completely, some important aspects of the period of exposure to the stressor

(2) Persistent symptoms of increased psychological sensitivity and arousal (not present before exposure to the stressor) shown by any two of the following:

a) difficulty in falling or staying asleep;

b) irritability or outbursts of anger;

c) difficulty in concentrating;

d) hyper-vigilance;

e) exaggerated startle response

 

[Lucycat]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...yout-after-ambulance-was-17-minutes-late.html
This is another article about the same lady

had just boarded a bus in Wimbledon when her knee cap went. Passengers went to help, but it took 50 minutes for an ambulance to arrive. The museum's former exhibitions manager lay trapped between two seats on the bus as paramedics finally arrived to give her pain relief and put her knee cap back into place

Note the word in this article that is missing in the first one. There is a huge difference between a dislocated knee and dislocated knee CAP![DOUBLEPOST=1393168978][/DOUBLEPOST]

Am I wrong about a dislocated knee requiring a complete tear of all major ligaments?

 

[Hashi]

whether the bus company could be at fault.

I don't think the bus had started. The Telegraph says:

Ceri Leigh, 50, had just boarded a bus in Wimbledon when her knee cap went.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...yout-after-ambulance-was-17-minutes-late.html

I don't think any of the reports say the bus jolted or anything. I'm sure if it had she would have sued them too.

 

[cherryblossom]

@Loner, you raise an interesting question.

Am I wrong about a dislocated knee requiring a complete tear of all major ligaments?

I've attempted a very quick search on this and came up with the following (which I guess could still be right or wrong)

A knee dislocation occurs when the thigh bone and shin bone lose contact between each other. A knee dislocation is different from a [DLMURL="http://orthopedics.about.com/cs/patelladisorders/a/kneecapdisloc_2.htm"]patellar dislocation[/DLMURL]. A patellar dislocation, also called a "kneecap dislocation," occurs when the kneecap comes out of its groove on the end of the thigh bone.

When I referred to dislocated knee's in my post #7, I was referring to dislocated patella's. Using the definition above, I don't think I've ever come across a dislocated 'knee'.

That makes me wonder what definition the news article is using. I'm really not sure?

Either way, I still wonder about the validity of a PTSD diagnosis. However, just as we shouldn't self diagnose, I suppose we shouldn't try to diagnose someone from what they / or a newspaper says.