Article On Spectrum Of Dissociation

[Eleanor]

Glad to have you back, maddog.:) I hope the in-patient time served you well.

 

[anthony]

If you focus on survivors of childhood abuse - the DID springs out and PTSD looks like one thing - if you focus on vets and adult trauma victims - the anxiety springs out and PTSD looks slightly different.

Whilst this is a valid point, this is also still incorrect. PTSD is not dissociative when used in complex trauma. PTSD is an individual diagnosis, and has little to nothing to do with an additional comorbid dissociative diagnosis added. They are completely separate and individual diagnoses. One just would not exist without the other... yet it is still incorrect to state PTSD is a dissociative disorder or put it on a spectrum with such disorders.

If you are to do that, then a good majority of complex trauma sufferers often have alcohol or drug related coping issues, thus normally disorders added to their diagnosis. Why not throw them on the same line then and try and make them dissociative related? A person cannot throw one disorder into another category without then opening the same can of worms and including everything else.

This is the exact reason why the APA refused CPTSD as a disorder, because the entire disorders hypothetical makeup encompassed PTSD + dissociative disorder as one. And here is the exact discussion of part of the reason why they didn't do it, because then people confuse what a specific disorder is about and Eleanor raised that exact point by how you look at it from a trauma approach.

PTSD is now being moved out into a trauma category, along with some other diagnoses that are trauma based. Again... none of us can take those disorders out and include them in another categories timeline, even though you could argue PTSD is anxiety based and came from an anxiety category (lineage) you could place it back there, however; as also previously stated, the reason it is coming out is because the anxiety is a byproduct of having sustained trauma. The anxiety is not like all the other anxiety disorders in that category that exist without any specific event to cause them.

Complex trauma is a complex problem, and it's not going to be solved by trying to put PTSD on a lineage with dissociative disorders, by attempting to circumvent an already made decision about CPTSD through tackling it another way.

CPTSD will be accommodated soon enough through the extremely more accurately suggested diagnosis by Van Der Kolk, Disorder of Extreme Stress Not Otherwise Specified (DESNOS). This surpasses the realms of PTSD severity and includes the spectrum of severe stress dissociative factors, without entering a bitza approach which Herman attempted by hacking pieces of diagnoses together and calling it CPTSD, when there are already more accurate diagnoses individually covering each aspect to its limits.

People miss what PTSD is about, and before anyone tries to fit PTSD onto a dissociative scale, I would ask that you please provide the evidence symptom cluster of PTSD that states dissociation as a primary factor of PTSD. I can't see it existing in the symptom cluster of PTSD, though I do see it in dissociative disorders adequately covered, which can be diagnosed with or without the existence of trauma, albeit, the majority of dissociative disorders do encompass prior trauma to trigger such excessive dissociation to begin with.

Yet trauma should not be confused with any diagnosis, PTSD, dissociative, or otherwise. You do not have a diagnosis just because you have endured trauma, severe or otherwise. Just because you have lots of childhood trauma, also does not mean you fit DESNOS or complex trauma levels. It just doesn't work like that.

 

[Eleanor]

Ok Anthony, (with reference to what you said in another thread...) I am afraid you are just wrong about not having the wherewithal to do a doctorate. Sorry, dude. You may have had bad teaching at some point in the past - but you have the brains and writing ability to do it.:D

I'll have to go through this with a finer tooth comb when I am more awake..

 

[Powder]

I see your point, Anthony, and liked how you pointed out other diagnoses with dissociation as higher then typical PTSD.

 

[Powder]

Also, etiology, meaning, cause or origination, for DID and PTSD can be the same interpersonal trauma(s) but that does not make them the same disorder with the same issues. I see that point. But for political reasons relating to the fact that most people turn a blind eye to the ongoing, high levels of child abuse that takes place in "regular" two-parent, and all classes of families, I think it's still helpful for people to join together to take a stand on the real issue.

The thing we can do the most about, hopefully, is to curtail as much child abuse as we can with the power we have. I am of the opinion that even with women working in many cases, they do not leave their abusive husband, and visa-versa for social/emotional reasons aplenty. Who wants to be known as the person who married/lived with an abuser? Nobody. This level of selfishness is all to ordinary and is based on our social and human culture of power structures and order, which denies children (and other living things) the right to the same considerations as adults. This is, frankly, wrong on its face. Animals, the planet, and children cannot speak out for themselves like adults do, but they are the future of the whole system. So rather than being placed last on the priority list, they should be looked at with the esteem they deserve.

To this end, I see merit in analyzing the outcomes of interpersonal trauma that occurs in families over time and the very severe outcomes, including too many disorders to list here. That would take it too far off of PTSD.

Finally, on a different point, I don't blame biology as a major factor for PTSD, as I see too many factors that the current science just doesn't take into consideration. Science always blames some unknown and "un-discoverable" aspect of "biology" rather than concede they just don't know. Spiritual theories don't come into it, even if they are as old as 30,000 BC. I wonder when science will admit to its shortcomings openly and agree that spiritual and intuitive knowing has it's merits, in some cases, too. Of course, this is being co-opted in "thin slicing" and has always been in metaphysics. I'm sure I don't know all there is to know on this subject, but why science can't be pure and systematic, yet still allow for the unknowns, is beyond me.

 

[Powder]

Etiology is the known causation. We see the same abusive family pumping out a PTSD, a bipolar, and a depressed child, in my case. We all got the same treatment, more or less. So etiology is not a one to one. All it means is they don't call it "idiomatic," meaning, science currently doesn't have a way to pinpoint any causing factor yet, or that some problems arise, seemingly random, without "cause." Etiology is not really that important.

 

[anthony]

Etiology is the known causation. We see the same abusive family pumping out a PTSD, a bipolar, and a depressed child, in my case.

Yep, I pretty much agree with everything you said Muse, apart from PTSD.

Biological depression and bipolar are empirically validated as having hereditary backgrounds. Whilst classified as mental illness, they're actually biologically predisposed to a biological illness that causes severe mental ramifications. Both bipolar and chemical depression (very rare) are biological first, even though classified as mental health disorders. Their classification to my understanding stems to the outcome they produce, being primarily mental versus listing them under biological medicine.

PTSD is just so different. There is zero empirical evidence that PTSD has anything to do with genetics, unlike anxiety which can be a genetic trait. This is another reason why PTSD is being moved out of anxiety and into a trauma category, because there is zero genetic composition to PTSD. Whilst genetics play a role in everything we do, there is no empirical link to it even predisposing a person to PTSD, unlike claims attempting to be made. If hereditary genetics play any role in PTSD, it is so small and insignificant it means little to nothing, because the best science in the world cannot to date come out with any stable, conclusive findings on this facet in relation to PTSD. Lots of hypotheses and such, yet nothing empirical to substantiate any claims.

PTSD is just so unique, hence why it sits right beside DID as the two most controversial mental health disorders to date. This is another reason many who know this don't want DESNOS to succeed, even though it is superior in every way to CPTSD as a label for diagnostic criterion, based on its diagnostic criterion, as people want that controversial label, whether for status or recognition of their trauma longevity suffering.

You can literally expose a person to abnormal trauma after abnormal trauma, and eventually, even the most resistant person will break and develop PTSD symptoms. This is proven by POW's. POW's combine a range of people who have no genetic markers for anxiety or such, yet developed PTSD due to nothing more than the severe stress and trauma they were placed under, the constant unknown of death and so forth, whilst being a POW. There isn't a POW to date who has survived without severe psychological consequences as a result.

Hence... the complexity of PTSD compared to anxiety, depressive or dissociative disorders. PTSD is purely assessed based on trauma severity and its impact upon the person. The others are assessed on presenting symptoms, of which trauma has nothing to do with the ability for them to be diagnosed or not.

Me personally, I think the DSM V listings are to date some of the best the APA have revised towards. Everything takes time, and whilst I do not agree with how thick the DSM has become in attempting to give every day life attributes a mental disorder label, where severity for longevity has been dismissed in order to build a business model, which is what mental health has become... finally the constant revisions from 30,000+ psychiatrists globally are refining what is IMO one of the best DSM's to date for accuracy. Sure, even I can still see holes in some aspects of PTSD and surrounding diagnoses, yet there are also reasons for those, I just don't necessarily agree with them personally.

 

[Powder]

Anthony,

I am glad you came out and said that given enough exposure, we all would have PTSD; the argument that it's more to do with genetics really doesn't add up when you look at, like you said, POW's and those exposed to the worst human-caused traumas over time.

Hopefully, with the new DSM coming out, we will get the research and money into the PTSD therapies that will innovate and help the most with this. God knows with North America's penchant for deploying its armed forces reserves four times in a row, they are going to need it.

On that note, this is political, but in my state's news (Washington state) our Senator Murray finally put a stop to the local VFW from "reversing" diagnoses of PTSD and putting those vets back to active duty oversees. Apparently, documentation of practices of doing this to save money was found. Link to online news mention: Combat PTSD

I was angry, but not surprised, at this news. Of course they think they can "reverse" diagnosis of PTSD, which is ridiculus and shows how lightly it is being treated IMHO. This is a huge issue. And they need to look at how to balance policy with the best interest of everyone.

 

[anthony]

Yer, the US military has a whole bunch of rather large issues to deal with due to mental issues of returning troops. They also tried this with PTSD vs. TBI. PTSD is compensated higher than TBI, yet they're near identical in symptoms, thus they changed most who had a PTSD diagnosis who were also involved in blast incidents that caused concussions or such, thus they no longer had to compensate TBI as it's not a mental illness, it is physical.

From the sounds of what you wrote, seems nothing has really changed and they just keep at it to keep putting people in front of bullets for their own selfish purposes, not the overall best of the soldier themselves.

I also hope the new direction of the DSM with trauma grows as correctly as possible to adequately cover some insufficient areas, yet at the same time, hope they don't over do it either with more money making openings.

 

[Kimpersonal]

This is an area that is hard to study because you cannot traumatize people in an experiment (unethical and unthinkable) so you cannot use the lab to study traumas well.

Unethical or not ... this sort of experimentation has happened ... is happening today ... and likely will continue. It occurred during the 3rd reich on primarily Jewish guinea pigs at the hands of "doctors" experimenting on the tolerance of human beings to various tortures.

After the war, scientists involved in this kind of experimentation were widely sought after by militaries world wide. Many ended up being handsomely paid by CIA/FBI/NASA etc. I am in Canada ... where a man by the name of Dr. Ewan Cameron worked in various hospital mental wards. He was involved in trying to erase memories of people with problems. He used many disturbing means to further the trauma of patients which eventually cost the Canadian Government millions of dollars in restitution for victims and their families.

At this point I need to ask myself and others what may/may not be going on today in hospitals, military facilities, churches etc .... often receiving government funding to "study" trauma? Are they "helping" people with trauma ... "worsening" the condition of patients ... or even creating "new" cases of PTSD???

Yep ... I have paranoia. I don't want to dissociate nor have flashbacks to lessons learned in my life.
Dissociation bothers me even more than the flashbacks because I do not always consciously recall where my mind travelled during those times. It is dissociation that interests those in military/spy/espionage positions ... they think some may have the ability of "remote viewing" "telepathy" "ESP" or even "telekenesis" ... things that could be handy to say, figure out where Bin Laden is/was hiding???

George Clooney starred in a movie called, "The Man Who Stared at Goats". This is just a happy glimpse of such experimentation. They don't show the torture techniques employed to try to create people with psychic abilities. Suppressing memories, erasing the traumas is natural to PTSD ... hence the flashbacks to events we had consciously forgotten. The subconscious still retains those memories, however.

Most of us dealing with trauma are "accidental" or "collateral damage" ... the fact that many of us are here from military experiences or from childhoods in the hands of mentally ill/disturbed parents who were affected by war etc ... serves as the example of my thinking that we are "collateral damage" in the pursuit of a "superhuman" species.

I am thankful for this site that offers help to undo the damage done to us ... hopefully to prevent the spread of this damage to the next generation???

Just some scary thoughts... and hope for changing them.

Kimpersonal

 

[Powder]

Kim, no, I don't think your post sounds paranoid, just scary. Fear is our natural reaction to what terrible things are done by our own species.

I was thinking today that those who do not fear their government are just not aware much of what power is there, and what history has shown us. Yes, I was aware of the Nazi's experiments, but I didn't classify that as science. However, I am not read up on that; I don't go there now, knowing it would be too much info for me. My Husband says you are right and that they thought of it as science, that we all gained knowledge from those horrors. It is sad to think of.

All those who had dissociated childhoods report having intuitive abilities. The horse-cart issue does crop up though. Dissociation may be higher in those born with innate abilities to alter their own consciousness at will. I've heard the term "shape-shifters" and I've even heard of people who can appear to actually disappear. They basically make you not notice that they are even there. This has to be an innate ability that, if coupled with other factors, could mislead us to think the trauma did this to them.

Some scientists have theorized that what we call intuition was highly necessary before 30,000 BC in order to survive the harsh conditions and predators we faced as a species then. We then turned to the "science" of the seen world, such as the planets and stars, for "divination." Finally, we improved the scientific method further to actual science today.

Clearly, humans have many reported means of "knowing," and to me, science ought not to always trump everything else we have used to survive as a human species so long and under such harsh conditions. Would a lab scientist survive in the wild better than the shaman? It makes for an interesting research question.

Look at the story of Aaron Ralston, an American hiker who managed to get his arm jammed between two rock walls and be trapped, alone in the wild. The world knows he had to cut off his own arm to survive; what they may not know, which is outlined in his account/book, is that he had visions of his future as a father, actually seeing himself playing with his future child in a new house, and with only one arm! He didn't even notice the arm thing and make that connection until later. My point is that he used "psychic" vision to give him the will to live.

 

[Powder]

I'm noticing how I voluntarily dissociate or use it deliberately now, though not often. To illustrate, a few days ago, I was washing my hands and the water was coming out ice cold. This is how our plumbing is all winter in our house. You can have hot water in the further bath, if you turn it on and wait about 4 minutes. I was not able to wait, as my kid needed me. So I plunged my hands in and started washing.

Because it was painfully cold, I told myself (in my mind) "This water is not cold," and suddenly, I was able to separate my mind from my hands. They became almost numb and strange to me, but I no longer felt the cold (it was as if I mentally turned off sensation to my hands, which were somehow "no longer fully mine."

As soon as I was remarking how well that worked, I was astonished at how I managed to do that, without even really intending to. I think I am usually less conscious of my use of dissociation. Here I was using it like a parlor trick.

I know I do this on a less conscious level, probably daily, as such an automatic/habit that I don't realize I'm doing it; I got PTSD as a pre-school child, so I have always had this ability.

In this instance, I "caught myself" doing it, and I suddenly realized I was using old dissociation skills from childhood, and that this is not at all a healthy way to go about living as an adult. I began to sort of feel guilt, like I would if I had scarfed a bunch of chocolate and gotten a tummy ache as a result.

I decided not to practice this skill and to just deal with things in new ways. Ever since then, I have been facing some tough emotions and confronting some pain head on. (I am not in therapy--this is hard work on one's own.) My stress cups are full from work overload. I am trying to take it easy on myself and just accept my own feelings, call it PTSD, and not judge them. Thanks to this site, I can now see things for what they are, and that has helped a lot.

Has anyone noticed that you use dissociation for different reasons as a coping skill? What can you do to stop doing this, and what alternatives work for you? Thank you, Muse