General Boundaries

[amethist]

You could say if you speak to me like this I am going to leave the house with our son. He doesn't need to watch this either.

This to me is one of the strongest boundaries you can put into place. Taking yourself and your son away from it lets her calm down in her own way, without her pushing her issues onto you.

I have done this a few times when hubby went off on one for no reason. He very rarely does it now, as he knows I will leave him to shout and argue with himself.

 

[dayglo]

The fact that she doesn't remember *should* be disturbing to her. Can you discretely, get video of her outburst?

I've thought of that, trying to figure out how...

I am concerned about the issue of her being "controlling" - if she really is trying to control you that is a major warning sign of abuse (PTSD sufferers can be abusers even though most are not) and you have a child in the home to worry about. His safety and security have to be your first priorities. It sounds like he has seen a lot of disturbing stuff - do you have him working with a therapist? How does she treat him?

Yes, she had abuse (physical but not sexual) while growing up. Our son has seen some disturbing stuff. He says it doesn't bother him when I've talked to him one-on-one but you are right I need to do something.

 

[Valentino]

One fundamental aspect of boundaries is developing a healthy relationship with anger and aggression.

Allowing ourselves to listen to and work up to fully feeling anger will help us to recognize, identify, create and honor our own personal boundaries. From that, we learn our physical and emotional limitations and comfort levels, and then we can consciously set boundaries with other people.

Trauma history means that our nervous system has been totally overwhelmed, most likely including becoming a victim of someone else's anger and aggression, and having our most precious boundaries crossed, and also not being able to fully defend our boundaries or stand up for ourselves. Triggers are common after effects of trauma, and since emotional energy of anger was part of the traumatic event and attacker, we unconsciously associate anger as BAD and dangerous, so we develop a defense mechanism strategy try to avoid anger from others and ourselves at all costs.

Keeping the peace and avoiding aggression/conflict seems like a pretty good logical strategy on the surface and can work very well in the short term. But in the long term, it can be quite counter-productive, as it's more a delaying strategy, which means that when conflict finally happens it ends up being a big blow up. I say, try the opposite strategy, get comfortable working with smaller fires (conflicts, battles, angers), then that will avoid bigger fires and blow ups... But it also helps develop personal experience with working with aggression, so you also end up better prepared to act and react in high conflict situations; though that should be less likely to happen if you have been more conscious with smaller conflicts.

Working with anger is not an easy or pleasant thing. It is a lot of work and some of it can be extremely scary and uncomfortable. But the emotional energy of anger is extremely powerful, and when channeled properly and healthily, it is absolutely essential for working with, developing, setting and defending boundaries.

 

[Eleanor]

Valentino, that is the most clear and articulate explanation of the function of anger, and how it gets derailed by PTSD I've ever seen. Maybe even possible.

@ any passing Mod's - could this be put on a sticky someplace?

 

[Valentino]

Thanks for the compliment! I wish I could make it even more concise and practical, but talking about the nitty gritty of difficult emotions, is so challenging to put into words.

I give credit to Karla McLaren's research & books which shifted my understanding of emotions. Every emotion has a purpose and a message behind them. The problem is that we are not taught how to communicate and understand emotions as they come up, instead society teaches and shames us to chase after emotions that we like, and avoid, deny and numb from unpleasant emotions. We then lose the wealth of knowledge that can come from emotions, and we end up dealing with lots of side effects from tons of unacknowledged and unprocessed past emotions.

Here's a taste of Karla McLaren's work:

 

[Valentino]

Anyway, I asked her gently about what I should do when she gets like this. Since she doesn't even remember (or believe) that she said those things, I used my notes since it contained direct quotes. She got even more upset and said that she doesn't understand why I still love her and that she's not worthy of me. ("I don't deserve you", "I should just leave" "Why do you still love me when I act like this". More on this later)

dayglo,
I got a chance to review your earlier 'a newbie question' thread and while boundaries are a very important topic, I'm not sure if that's the best approach or focus for your situation.

It sounds like she cycles between Anger and Depression/Guilt.. Mood swings that sound somewhat similar to bipolar disorder (cycling between mania and depressed moods)... YES you do need boundaries for your and your son's own personal mental and physical health. BUT what you're dealing with is irrationality from her, extreme mood swings that seem to be caused by a lot of unresolved emotional pain and hurt in her nervous system.

So another strategy to consider is trying to figure out ways to diffuse her anger and depression. Trying to train her with strong hard line boundaries and limits, could be counter productive as they might ESCALATE her anger or depression. Distraction and Humor are two strategies that can work well with women, if you can change the topic to something else, she may temporarily forget the issue, if you can make fun of it by exaggerating it to extremes in a light hearted way, her mood can also ease.

Ultimately though, you need to help guide her to be more conscious of her own stress levels and how to manage her stress levels. Learning grounding techniques and practices which can keep her in her body instead of getting overwhelmed with past emotional baggage. Also she needs to find a place of safety, where she can let her guard down. Until she feels safe and stable, she can't really effectively even address or acknowledge any of her past hurt and pain.

Right now she's just stuck in a defensive/survival mode... She uses anger to defend against feeling her own pain and future pain, but you end up being the easy projection to blame and attack. Then when she's weakened, she uses personal shame and guilt, to push you away, create space, and deal with her depression & emotional fatigue...

ohhh... and another idea..... since her behavior might have been triggered by both her parents dying.... that huge personal loss may have triggered more stress in her nervous system. Grief is a lot of work, she may be avoiding grief and feeling the pain of her loss by focusing on you even more with anger, guilt, codependence, shame, fear, etc. It's an unconscious distraction method, grief is very difficult... 2 important parts of her life story are now gone, and she needs to let go of that old story, and accept her new life without them being alive.

So... trying to help her mourn and grieve for those huge loses also might be part of her core issues.

Hope I didn't jump around too much, but I don't have a lot of information to work with. And descriptions of her surface behavior and what she has said, is typically distractions. So it takes a bit of work to decode things, look for patterns from history of behavior, and then eventually discover what the 'real' issues are.

 

[The Albatross]

Thanks for the video Valentino, I am familiar with some of Karla McLaren. Maybe I should dig deeper into her books. Her seminars are extremely expensive.

 

[LookingForGuidance]

I think boundaries are a great idea, but I'm not sure how practical they may be in my situation. I'm hoping that some of you with experience in this realm can help.

Several months ago my wife attempted suicide, and when she is triggered she has suicidal ideation and has been known to cut herself. Leaving the house is not a good idea at those times for obvious reasons. I feel that if I were to just go elsewhere in the house and ignore her when she becomes verbally abusive, it will ratchet her anger up a notch or five. I can take being yelled at quite a bit. Got used to it as a kid. But when it's intentionally hurtful, it crosses a line. What are some boundary consequences that would be safe to use in this type of situation?

 

[amethist]

The best one to use as hard as it is, is to walk away when they are shouting and yelling at you.

I know its not easy to do, but it does give them time to calm down if you do.

I have put my coat on and left my husband to deal with his own bad temper on his own. By the time I have got back he is usually calm and apologetic. If he ever hurt himself in the process, then that is his responsibility, not mine.

You have to have the patience of a saint and the skin of a rhino to be a good supporter.

 

[Valentino]

Leaving can trigger abandonment fears.

This is an speculation about differences between women and men.

Men like space and freedom, so a woman physically walking away or leaving might actually be a good thing. BUT what some women do is walk away emotionally, disengage emotionally and intentionally, which can be quite infuriating in the long run for men.

On the flip side... Women are probably genetically hardwired to fear abandonment and being alone. Women are pregnant for 9.5 months, and during that time and recovery are extremely vulnerable, so having a physical presence to help protect and care for her is important for her & her baby's survival. There have been studies about where domestic abuse happens, and two common areas are at the door exiting the bedroom, and door exiting the house. These two areas are where the man would be trying to leave the house, but woman might say or do something aggressive or mean to keep the guy there. Any attention is better than being abandoned and alone.

So.... for men leaving could be counter productive as it may trigger abandonment fears and reactions. Maybe better to disengage emotionally but stay physically present. Or if you're good, distract with humor or change the subject, or just let her vent it out and don't take what she says personal.

For women, physically leaving might be reasonable option. It allows the guy room to breathe and protects you from his aggression. But maybe try not to be as passive aggressive with psychological mind games, like shutting down emotionally, holding grudges, and over using guilt and shame.

....... this is purely a theory of mine... still refining it.. diving into female/male roles and dynamic is very complex and can dangerous to talk about..

 

[amethist]

But maybe try not to be as passive aggressive with psychological mind games, like shutting down emotionally, holding grudges, and over using guilt and shame.

I do none of the above, just take myself away from his irrational ranting, to allow him time to deal with what ever is bugging him.

I am not going to stay in the firing line when his issues at the time are nothing to do with me, its just him having a go at me because I am there.

But like you say it is maybe different for men.

I still don't see why anyone should take abuse, male or female.

 

[Eleanor]

I agree with amethist - there is no good reason to take abuse. And there are a great many very good reasons not to.

But when it's intentionally hurtful, it crosses a line. What are some boundary consequences that would be safe to use in this type of situation?

If she is having SI and you are worried about her hurting herself if you leave, and she is being abusive to you, call the paramedics. You don't have to leave for a long time. Different people have different "latency" periods for their anger - what is hers? "Average normal people" in the absence of continued aggravation calm down in about 20 minutes. My H is about two hours. When he is in a full blown episode it is about two days. If hers is short - you can calmly leave and come back in half and hour. You are not responsible for her actions, and she has to take responsibility for getting her psyche under control. The only difference between a healthy relationship with a PTSD sufferer and your average garden variety abusive relationship (IMHO) is the 100% commitment of the sufferer to treating the PTSD and getting it under control - which means they will be taking responsibility for what they do when they are "in it."

BTW @ Valentino - my H has serious abandonment issues from childhood abuse - and it TOTALLY escalates his reactions when I leave. And we are working on an alternative where he leaves, but if it doesn't work, he and I are still in agreement that if he doesn't disengage on the signal - I will leave. Verbal abuse is a deal breaker, and I think it should be a deal breaker for everyone looking to build a healthy relationship. Healing from PTSD is F***ING HARD, it is hard to believe in, painful and takes a long time. Why would anyone DO it if they didn't have a lot of pretty Damn good reasons to do so? If supporters let sufferers off the hook, then we aren't supporting anymore, we are just enabling. Sorry to come off harsh, but that's how I see it.