Relationship Can we talk about cognitive distortion?

[Snowflakes]

Yes @Snowflakes , exactly. And as someone who works with those with dementia I don't say that without intimately seeing and knowing the comparison.

@Junebug Thank you so much. I used dementia as an example because I cared for a dementia relative a long time ago. She would lash out at me but I had unlimited patience because I believed it was the illness, not her. And, yes, calm soothing conversation always worked for both of us.

So, during those times that my C-PTSD sufferer is lashing out at me....during that time, I should have the same mindset of not taking it personally and calm, soothing conversation.

This is a huge “aha moment” for me. I didn’t realize it.

@Junebug , this is going to take some inward reflection on my part but I want you to know that you’ve made a difference in my life. Thank you @Hojay and @scout86 ....Collectively this thread had given me much to think about. :hug:

 

[Tinyflame]

Thank you @Hojay , for being so gracious to allow my input. :notworthy: Thank you @Snowflakes too. :hug::hug:

I want to word this carefully and yet words are not my forte!

.during that time, I should have the same mindset of not taking it personally and calm, soothing conversation.

'During that time'- for sure. Use your wisdom- calm conversation, a laugh, a hug, walking away. I always try to remember 'the people who need love the most, 'deserve' (in the moment with their words and actions?) it the least'. But too, this is different than abuse, manipulation, or dramatics, or someone trying to control your choices. Often with ptsd I don't think we feel 'worth it', but that doesn't mean we think anger is the natural conclusion- how or why get angry at our own 'deficiencies'? Don't stick around for abuse, but recognize the difference between that and a panic attack or meltdown.

But if they can tell you 'why'- that's huge. And it always goes back, ultimately, to the past for me.

The biggest difference to dementia is we 'know' it's (pardon the vernacular) 'nuts', or should, but by the same token fear False Evidence Appearing Real. So, for example, something concrete like having to 'avoid' seeing a brand of cookies in the store, I 'know' it looks nutty to shield my eyes, so I'll look away. Or avoid the isle entirely (.. impossible!:hungry:;) ). Or something sets me off and I leave- or want to- the groceries in the isle. But I don't want to return to the store in case they saw, and I'll have to do it all again, at some point. :meh::(:tdown:

But intangibles or complex connections/ beliefs/ deep-seeded beliefs/ experiences (and even triggers) are different, and lots of cognitive distortions come in. Like the lightbulb analogy: turning on the light and possibly finding metaphorical gore and carnage or infection, doesn't feel all that liberating.
(Btw I shouldn't say "we" but for "me", sorry! :sorry: )

Similarly, one person can be talking (x), my underlying conclusion is it is a mistake I was born.

But,JMHO but I think a parent-child dynamic is :wtf::wtf::wtf: . Everyone has, and should, live their own life. Yes, with a SO or spouse with incredible trust in one another- but that is not one dictating/ parenting the other.

One can't really cheer what they tolerate, they have to work with it (including some tolerance- but patience was a better word) , or choose not to.

But, wait a minute- is/ was there love? Can you be creative and think outside the box? Can you be spontaneous in even small ways despite the risk of the reaction? , Etc. ie can you see what, why and how you love(d) this person, and care for yourself? Can you, like @scout86 said, point out the successes they accomplish without 'The Talk' or a 'but' after? Can you do things like walking and talking? Can you forgive them when the sight in their 'mind's eye' is the figure of someone else behind you, and they (read 'me' ,lol:rolleyes: ) can't find words to continue the conversation because what words are there that don't sound 'nuts', etc.

And this most definitely goes the other way too- as a sufferer' "I" have to get out of myself! And is it fair to receive and not give the same in return? :tdown:

I mean, he understood why this was happening and got his side of this dynamic to a certain degree, or else we wouldn't still be together. So that's that. And my approach has also changed dramatically.

I think this is so great ^^^ !:tup::tup: To me, that is therapy-in-motion and likely even one of the goals of couple's work. :)

Just one question @Hojay , and please I don't mean it to offend- even to silently ask yourself- if he actually had responded differently, in brutal self-honesty, do you think 'your mind' would still have found reasons to doubt? Because our minds can do that- our wounds do that- and I'm hearing lots of 'fear' all around?:(

I think at some point we have to decide to choose to commit to trusting, even incrementally, or not continue with that person.

Distracting from the mindset can open the door to being able to 'think'.

Hugs to you. :hug::hug:

 

[Tinyflame]

I also think anything that's healthy and helpful is therapeutic.

 

[Freida]

yep -- I learn so much from you all.... It's very humbling...

90% of the time, it doesn't work. He's off on believing he got it right the first time. The more I explain, the more misunderstood he feels, the more panicked he gets. He believes his "read" on the situation SO MUCH, my attempts at clarifying seem to just sound manipulative to him or like I'm invalidating his emotions--no matter how calmly and reasonably I try to appeal to reason.

Hubby and I run into this a lot. I'm SURE! one of us has said or done something and he keeps insisting it didn't happen. It makes me insane. How are we remembering so differently? Why am I always the one who is wrong? what is wrong with me!!!!

And that might be the missing piece. What is wrong with ME. Not him, not our relationship. Me. I know that I have a hard time holding memories and sometimes I am SURE that I'm right about whatever it is. But he tells me I'm wrong. That it didn't happen or it did happen but not the way I remember or that I am just feeling a feeling that doesn't apply to the situation. Even something stupid like painting a room can end up with me feeling that he thinks I'm stupid or making things up. And the more he tries to convince me that I'm wrong the more panicked I get. How can I be wrong? This is what he said! Or this is what I did. Or this is what I remember! But its not true. And I have no idea what to do with that. And then - I get a flashback or an intrusive memory because I'm upset and not on guard against my own brain and WHAM I'm off and running. Obviously it's his fault - because he is the one who started the conversation about the paint chip. (not really, but you get what I mean).

This is kind of a fine point, but I think it matters. If you think about it, my T validated the FACT that felt as I did, but NOT my reasons for having the feeling. He acknowledged that my feelings were based on real experiences, but PAST experiences. Then he encouraged me to consider the possibility that NOW might be different from THEN. And I'll admit, it might be. (It also might not be. LOL)

^^^^^ yes!

re you saying that a sufferer truly does not have the ability to know they are wrong from my perspective who knows what they say is not factually true? If this is the case, then I need to learn more patience.

Yep. Sorry but yep. It makes me insane when he INSISTS he is right. Because I'm wrong. And I don't understand why.

I am very smart. I was very successful in a high stress job that very few people in the world can do. And now I can't remember a conversation about a paint chip. It is so very demeaning. And as my symptoms increase it gets worse. So on the rare occasion when I think I'm sure about something I grab it like a pit bull on a steak. There are times when hubby has to leave the conversation because he knows he's not going to convince me I'm wrong. Because at that point it's not about whatever we are arguing about. It's about me facing that I'm maybe not sure of what happened. It's me facing my reality is once again different than his. And that leads to flat out panic

One thing that helps hubby and I is that I start with "have we already talked about this?" Sometimes I honestly don't know - so if we have he can tell me where we left off. yes - it means I have to admit that there is a problem. But it is a problem -not a shortcoming of my ability to think. And that makes it a bit eaiser

Ugh, I feel for you, grimalkin. Not to use some trite or offensive comparison, but it's a bit like watching someone grope helplessly around a dark room when the light switch is Right. There! You're watching and you Just. Want. To. Press. It. For. Them. It's so frustrating. There's the light switch, gosh darnit!! I'm rambling, but only because I know how it feels. It's immensely painful to have to lose a relationship because of something that wasn't done, as opposed to something that was done...

You people are freeking saints! Just sayin....

 

[Hojay]

Thank you, Freide! Again, all so valuable and also...well, familiar sounding :)

And the more he tries to convince me that I'm wrong the more panicked I get. How can I be wrong? This is what he said! Or this is what I did. Or this is what I remember! But its not true. And I have no idea what to do with that.

Most of the time, my partner and I actually agree on the facts. Yes, that was said. Yes, I said that. But the meaning of my words and his interpretation are two very different things.

I say, "The sky is blue and it's sunny." What I mean is, "The sky is blue and it's sunny."

What he hears is, "The sky is blue and it's sunny, and we can't enjoy it because you're an epic f*ck up and I will leave you, and oh, by the way, you're cheating on me so go eff yourself and also, you deserved all the abuse in your life." Which is...where cognitive distortion comes in.

So while I'm saying, "that's not what I said", he says, "What you didn't just say the sky is blue and sunny?" "Yes, but that doesn't mean all the things you think it means." "Do you think I'm crazy?! YOU JUST SAID IT..."

So...it's two very different interpretations. One actual, one distorted. And while I completely understand how this can happen, it's a bitch to reason with or contain.

But part of what you're describing is maybe also more a memory thing? As in I remember things my partner doesn't and vice versa? We went shopping on Wednesday. No we didn't. We did. No we didn't. Kind of thing?

 

[Hojay]

if he actually had responded differently, in brutal self-honesty, do you think 'your mind' would still have found reasons to doubt?

thank you for your input @Junebug! To answer your questions, yes, absolutely, my mind would have found 100 reasons to doubt. But that's my problem, not his. If he could have a normal, not distorted conversation with me, whatever nagging would be left in my mind would be on me :)

 

[grimalkin]

I say, "The sky is blue and it's sunny." What I mean is, "The sky is blue and it's sunny."

What he hears is, "The sky is blue and it's sunny, and we can't enjoy it because you're an epic f*ck up and I will leave you, and oh, by the way, you're cheating on me so go eff yourself and also, you deserved all the abuse in your life." Which is...where cognitive distortion comes in.

So while I'm saying, "that's not what I said", he says, "What you didn't just say the sky is blue and sunny?" "Yes, but that doesn't mean all the things you think it means." "Do you think I'm crazy?! YOU JUST SAID IT..."

So so many times we had (and sometimes continue to have) conversations like this. I end up bewildered, wondering where THAT conversation came from, because we clearly weren't having the same conversation. To be honest, I'm still recovering from this, because for a long time he had convinced me that it was ME that was the problem - that I have severe short term memory problems, constantly misunderstand him and/or didn't listen, and that my own training and experience is garbage.

To an extent, he gaslighted me, intentionally or not, because he wasn't understanding (or wouldn't acknowledge) that it was his own distortions causing our communication problems. It wasn't until we had someone else in the room (our marriage counselor) that he finally started to believe/acknowledge/admit that he was the one misunderstanding me. There were some pretty long periods in our relationship where I was tempted (and still kind of wish I had) to record our conversations, just to bring myself some sanity. Even reflective listening didn't work with him.

But part of what you're describing is maybe also more a memory thing? As in I remember things my partner doesn't and vice versa? We went shopping on Wednesday. No we didn't. We did. No we didn't. Kind of thing?

was also a thing for us - I'm not sure if it's because he dissociates so much, or just can't keep time straight in his head. I remember one blow up we had because he wanted me to make something for him, that I'd made for him previously. But he wanted me to guess what it was. And the only clue he gave me is that I'd made it in the last 6 months. I literally went through my cookbooks, wracked my brain, trying to "remember" what it was, as he got angrier and angrier about my not "remembering" this wonderful thing I'd baked for him.

He FINALLY told me what it was. I just...was dumbfounded. I'd made it, literally, years earlier (not 6 months), 3 houses previously. He STILL didn't quite believe me when I showed him the facebook post HE HAD POSTED, years previously, about how cool it was I'd baked this for him.

 

[Tinyflame]

Oh my, I never have memory problems.. :whistling:;)

Thank you @Hojay I understand better! This:

What he hears is, "The sky is blue and it's sunny, and we can't enjoy it because you're an epic f*ck up and I will leave you, and oh, by the way, you're cheating on me so go eff yourself and also, you deserved all the abuse in your life." Which is...where cognitive distortion comes in.

oh my, my mind does this often- but it's not the cognitive distortions that start the ball rolling, or continue it (though they can)- it's pain. And memory leads to distortions, but that is after thinking is engaged.

I should/ could have a 1000 examples (in a month), but I can't remember them. :rolleyes: Only the last one- something about having a purpose is fulfilling and motivating. Which rationally I totally agree with. But, now I have no purpose, fight to stay alive without. Feel pain -> 100 thoughts: separate Universe, must be nice!, I eff'ed it up, I'm a loser and freak, purpose I thought I had last 20 years probably nuts, forgot I had it, doesn't matter likely stupid, anyway, am hopeless, stop whining, get a purpose, where would my life be if I made different decisions 20+ years ago-> I shouldn't be here, burden and wet blanket, -> go get lost. What started these thoughts? Oh ya. F the whole thing. Why am I even here, I knew it was a mistake, feels like getting abused, well I guess i never did deserve more. Etc.

If he could have a normal, not distorted conversation with me, whatever nagging would be left in my mind would be on me :)

You see though, you're seeing the Solution as coming from him. And it sounds more like he's experiencing something like the above. Can you tolerate a window of uncertainty, by choosing to trust him, without him saying the 'right' words? Because right now, it sounds he can't win. I have found that identifying the distortions doesn't cure the pain, and then all gets a bad connotation. But feeling sh*tty, eventually understanding why, but replacing it with competing happy new memories or hope- unrelated to any of it even- competes with pain. Focusing on pain (like no distractions at night/ sleep), it 'feels' worse.

I do think I have more hope, yes with understanding or breaking down some distortions but more so it's up to me to go out on a limb to try. It's like a journey on broken glass, but that's not the hope killer to me, if I can grasp a direction to try to head. Without something better than where my head is at, is soul destroying.

The distortions are a long way away from the genesis, and the quicker that that gets stopped up the less far I fall. That's why repeating a few words or holding something associated with things will be ok or even seeing a smile or seeing something beautiful and 'safe' helps me as soon as I notice it. Because I'll start looking for the worst/ expecting it too, it feels like I have to get away from there, it's dangerous, a sham, can't remember anything. Better dealing with a wave than a tsunami though, if I can stop it early. Never happens through busting distortions though, they come later after I'm physically/ emotionally off the rails already.

 

[Freida]

That's why repeating a few words or holding something associated with things will be ok or even seeing a smile or seeing something beautiful and 'safe' helps me as soon as I notice it. Because I'll start looking for the worst/ expecting it too, it feels like I have to get away from there, it's dangerous, a sham, can't remember anything. Better dealing with a wave than a tsunami though, if I can stop it early. Never happens through busting distortions though, they come later after I'm physically/ emotionally off the rails already.

^^^^^this!!! = me

What he hears is, "The sky is blue and it's sunny, and we can't enjoy it because you're an epic f*ck up and I will leave you, and oh, by the way, you're cheating on me so go eff yourself and also, you deserved all the abuse in your life." Which is...where cognitive distortion comes in.

^^^^^This = the marriage counseling we went to because it wasn't acceptable for me to be mean because I was afraid
I get to blame him when we are talking about facts I have wrong. I don't get to use him as my personal pinata when I'm not sure what is really going on. But it took two really tough rounds of marriage counseling to get there and it's still not easy sometimes.

 

[Tinyflame]

Yes @Freida it's like being a Human (-?, sometimes I wonder!) Environmental Sponge. :meh:

 

[mumstheword]

Beautiful and articulate writing @ Junebug.:happy::playful::joyful::cry::eek: :wtf::woot::smug:.

I just thinking of writing something but your words say so much of it, better than I.

I will just say ... as a sufferer myself, also living with as my SO, another sufferer ...that I find by dealing with my own cognitive distortions, first, I am in a far stronger position to support my man through his.

And one thing I will add, and that is, not expecting my SO to be rational when he's triggered? Is something that saves this relationship
I take it for what it is, an extreme emotional reaction that's making it's way to the surface, which is a step up from staying repressed, like it has had to, for God knows how many years, and only because he feels safe enough now to finally voice it. Mind you, mine doesn't abuse me, it's up to you to put your boundaries in, not to take his illness personally.

It would be very painful to hear all those accusations that you know are over the top, unwarranted, attacky, yada yaa yada yah, but perhaps if you entertain the notion that right now, in that moment, he's, most probably, very, very frightened, feeling shamed, intruded upon, accused, manipulated, inarticulate, possibly stupid, his life feels threatened, rejection and guilt-assigning is a not only a possible reality, but, most likely immanent, and he knows, deep down, that he's being irrational, and this only snowballs the whole shmozzle.

He's a man, if he's a man in healthy touch with his masculinity, he's going to go into fight mode (not to exclude women from that, I hope no one takes offence here and preferably, gets it), or, secondarily, perhaps flight mode, if the threat feels too overwhelming.
That's not about you!
It's about keeping him safe. And it's a very primal, physical part of the brain that's running it. Not his rational frontal lobe reasoning brain.

So maybe, save those "reasonable" parts of the argument for later, when you worked hard at creating an emotional environment that feels safe for him.

This takes a lot of humility, patience, commitment and a matured ago.

If you feel unsafe in the emotional environment that he's creating?

Then it sounds like, either your own cognitive distortions are at play, boundaries need tightening, as there is an abuse dynamic going on, or it's not a position you are suited or skilled enough for.

Ok, I ended up saying a lot more than I intended and, keep in mind, I may be way off the mark here, it could be my cognitive distortions at play, so please, disregard if not relevant or none of it resonates for you. This is just the approach that works for me.

 

[lostnconfused]

While growing up, I tried to calm my abusers down whenever they would have these cognitive distortions. I felt I had to confront them and try to defend myself and help them understand that their accusations weren't the truth because whenever I didn't (and even when I did), they would continue ranting and calling us swear words; tell us to shut up; bring up our past and say that they were glad we were bullied at school; tell us that we don't have any friends; that no one likes us, etc. When we'd go to our rooms, they'd still continue ranting to each other about me or my sibling for hours.

Then, after ranting, they'd knock on our doors and threaten to kick us out, call the police on us (because they knew the police already believed them over me,) etc., if we didn't do or make the same choices that they would/wanted (i.e., for example, they'd rant and get upset all the time because we'd do chores/eat meals/get up at differently/eat different things/ or at different times than they would've; they'd say we were wrong, that something was wrong with us for not doing these things at certain times they would've, yet they wouldn't tell us these things ahead of time. They'd say we should've known without them having to tell us (basically, being a mind-reader.) We're expected to be their version of perfect, whatever that is; (they weren't ever clear or rational about it; they'd change their minds a lot, and even forget the abusive things they previously said or did.) They don't think they're abusive, but that, despite not having college degrees, they're perfect at everything they do, and that their way of thinking is the only correct way, that everyone else in the world (abuse victims, college-educated doctors, etc.) is wrong, a liar, a cheat, rich (swear word.) They lack empathy for others and don't care about hearing about others' pain; only theirs.

That's why I believe they, especially my mother, have at least one type of personality disorder; I've never come across adults who react or talk like them.