Relationship Can we talk about cognitive distortion?

[lostnconfused]

Then, after not being in their angry moods, they'd suddenly buy my sibling and me gifts, food, etc., acting as though they suddenly care about us. But then they, especially my mother, would suddenly be back into an abusive mood and repeat all the horrible, abusive things they'd say or do, as though they suddenly forgot or couldn't remember that they cared about us.

 

[Hojay]

So much to think about!

To be honest, I'm still recovering from this, because for a long time he had convinced me that it was ME that was the problem - that I have severe short term memory problems, constantly misunderstand him and/or didn't listen, and that my own training and experience is garbage.

To an extent, he gaslighted me

Well, that just gave me the chills. That's the constant battle here. Because it's so subtle, really, it takes real concentration to take a step back and say, Nope, that isn't me. It "feels" like gaslighting. I think gaslighting needs clear intention, but the effect here is the same unless real boundaries are drawn and one's own sense of reality is continuously checked and re-checked.

I'm more than willing to own my part. If I misunderstood something, didn't listen right, interpreted something wrong--sure, I'll cop to it. That's my downfall. I can be very quick to second guess myself with him. I want to listen and be constructive, own my part, and grow from it. That's a dangerous approach sometimes when the other is a distorted mirror.

The other day he was screaming stuff at me, and not an agitated, general anxiety kind of scream, an accusatory one. I asked him why he had to scream these things at me. He burst into tears and said "I'm not screaming...why would you think I'm screaming. I'm trying to tell you how I feel. I'm not mad at you. I'm really all alone in the world here." *shuts down*

So there I was thinking, Jaysus, what's wrong with me? I totally misunderstand him constantly. I need to take another look at my boundaries. I should just ignore the tone because that's how he expresses his emotions. But what? NO! No.

I'm a loser and freak, purpose I thought I had last 20 years probably nuts, forgot I had it, doesn't matter likely stupid, anyway, am hopeless, stop whining, get a purpose, where would my life be if I made different decisions 20+ years ago-> I shouldn't be here, burden and wet blanket, -> go get lost. What started these thoughts? Oh ya. F the whole thing. Why am I even here, I knew it was a mistake, feels like getting abused, well I guess i never did deserve more.

Thank you, Junebug, I think this is exactly what goes on in my SO's head...at least from what I gather when parts of this come out of his mouth....

You see though, you're seeing the Solution as coming from him. And it sounds more like he's experiencing something like the above. Can you tolerate a window of uncertainty, by choosing to trust him, without him saying the 'right' words?

I see the solution as coming from both of us. I choose to trust him every day, or else I would not still be with him. But trust is built by two people, together, through communication and understanding.

I have found that identifying the distortions doesn't cure the pain, and then all gets a bad connotation.

Interesting. I mean, this is just basic here, but I was thinking of suggesting to my SO that he maybe start a journal logging our "situations" (after he's calmed down, of course.) As in, 1. Hojay said X 2. X made me feel angry/ashamed/alone 3. I felt xyz because X means Y. 4. Is Y true or an interpretation?

No matter if he kept writing Y is true over and over, perhaps it could at least help him gain some self-awareness as to his inner chatter--the link between words and feelings = interpretation.

I recognize this would be a lot of hard work and soul searching for a sufferer, but I thought I could give it a shot.

But if you say that identifying these distortions doesn't help, I'm not sure :(

And one thing I will add, and that is, not expecting my SO to be rational when he's triggered?

Thank you @mumstheworld, your entire post was very helpful! This ^ specifically, I try to be very aware of. After a certain point I catch on that he is not being rational (it's not always clear because he's rhetorically quite adept until it swaps over into panic.) So at that point I stop trying to reason with him.

a step up from staying repressed

Interesting! And kind of hopeful!

Mind you, mine doesn't abuse me, it's up to you to put your boundaries in, not to take his illness personally.

I have my issues with this. I have a good grasp of what my boundaries are, but I'm starting to realize it's quite difficult to really see when he has crossed them. Screaming, for example, is not okay with me. But then, he screams sometimes out of pure desperation and helplessness, not at me necessarily. So I have to really sift through his words to determine if have to call this off because he's screaming at ME or should I continue because he's trying to communicate his feelings? (I wrote a bit on that above to grimalkin.) Also, when he is screaming at ME but is also in a full blown panic attack and doesn't even know he's speaking, do I keep my boundary and walk out or do I go through the exercises with him and help calm him down?

On not taking it personally, I'm on the fence with this motto. He makes it very personal sometimes. If I don't take it personally, why would I bother putting up a boundary? I understand, of course, that I'm not the issue and it isn't really about me, but his distortions make it about me, so yeah...it's personal at that moment. What I do with that is another matter.

If you feel unsafe in the emotional environment that he's creating?

No, I don't feel unsafe because I think he's cheating. I feel unsafe because my emotions, thoughts, and feelings are nothing but cannon fodder for his cognitive distortions. There's only so many times you can be shot down like that before you recognize it's unsafe to speak your mind and shut down to a certain degree. Part of me has learned the great lesson of self-soothing and self-validation through this experience, but another part feels like it's retreating and drying up.

 

[Freida]

@lostforgottensoul that is horrible -- I'm so sorry you had to grow up like that

 

[Snowflakes]

I see the solution as coming from both of us. I choose to trust him every day, or else I would not still be with him. But trust is built by two people, together, through communication and understanding.

I feel unsafe because my emotions, thoughts, and feelings are nothing but cannon fodder for his cognitive distortions. There's only so many times you can be shot down like that before you recognize it's unsafe to speak your mind and shut down to a certain degree. Part of me has learned the great lesson of self-soothing and self-validation through this experience, but another part feels like it's retreating and drying up.

Yes and yes. If I can come to terms with these 2 critical statements, my sufferer and I have a chance. Thanks @Hojay for putting my thoughts into words. This is, in a nutshell, was what I was trying to say earlier in much to many words :hug:

 

[lostforgottensoul]

@lostforgottensoul

I think you meant @lostnconfused. I was like "wait, I don't remember posting here". Lol!

 

[scout86]

He makes it very personal sometimes. If I don't take it personally, why would I bother putting up a boundary?

This is complicated. I'm going to suggest that, maybe, there's a difference between him actually making it personal and it FEELING like he's making it personal. I'm totally sure what ever he says, it sounds personal. Not questioning that at all. What I'm saying is, once you get pushed to the point where you're actually triggered, things are happening on autopilot. You really aren't thinking with the rational part of your brain enough for it to be "personal". You're reacting to the person in front of you, true. But you're reacting in a way that's not rational, and not thought out, and quite possibly not accurate, because it's the lizard part of your brain that's running the show. Basically, it's not the person talking, at that point, it's the PTSD talking.

I don't think you should have to put up with being yelled at. What would happen, when that starts, if you said something like, "I need to take a bit of a break. I'll be back in 10 minutes and we can continue the conversation." ? Then walk out of the room, insist on 10 minutes of quiet, and come back.

 

[lostnconfused]

...Now I simply and silently walk away. What she thinks about me when I walk away is irrelevant.....I mean, it can’t be any worse than what was thought about me before I walked away.

I forgot to mention that, sometimes, whenever my sibling and I would try this, it would only infuriate our abusers even more because they'd take it personally, as a sign that we weren't listening to what they were saying (blaming and criticizing,) so they would physically grab us (and physically abuse us for doing that) and tell us not to walk away from them when they're talking to us, forcing us, in the future, to think twice about walking away (because doing that might escalate into physical abuse, again.)

So, staying and trying to verbally defend ourselves seemed like the safest, better option because that way, we weren't physically abused as much (because our abusers would feel as though we're listening to them, so wouldn't become that enraged.)

 

[Hojay]

here's a difference between him actually making it personal and it FEELING like he's making it personal. I'm totally sure what ever he says, it sounds personal.

Yes, it's very difficult with him to differentiate what is pure panic and what is anger direct toward me. I already try to intuit and figure out which is which most of the time. But at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter, you know? I get what happens to him, amygdala hijack, autopilot, but in the end, even an "I love you!" screamed at you with a red-face and clenched teeth is hurtful. I can know about what happens to him in those moments all I want, my reaction to it will be the same. Hurt, hopefully not argue to make him see what he's distorting right now, and end the conversation soon enough to not catch the blame for his panic attack. But...

What would happen, when that starts, if you said something like, "I need to take a bit of a break. I'll be back in 10 minutes and we can continue the conversation." ? Then walk out of the room, insist on 10 minutes of quiet, and come back.

I strongly suspect he would get even more panicked (I don't expect, I've experienced it) because he thinks I don't care, am not listening, or dismissing what he's saying. Part of me thinks he also doesn't like that I take control in those moments and end the conversation on my terms. Also, I suspect in those 10 minutes he would get even more panicked and there'd be no conversation to continue 10 minutes later. Maybe in 3 days, though, or 2 months, depending on what it is we were talking about.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I guess I'm just looking for people in the same boat. Cognitive distortions, anyone? Anyone in the business of constantly having to maneuver around them?

I'm a sufferer but I still have to maneuver around my own congitive disortions a lot. I have just about every congitive disortion there is. When I loose all rational thought though and am just exploding all over the place and have lost my own ability to leave the situtation it is SUPER helpful if the other person stops the discussion (and DOES NOT argue with me as that just makes it worse) and leaves the room or somehow leaves. I am in a triggered state but with time that calms on it's own.

If the person doesn't leave I think it's very helpful to stop the conversation about whatever and acknowledge that I'm upset and why. Not telling me that I am not rational. That will also make it worse. But rather aknowledge my feelings at the time and shows understanding of that.

If that can't be done though I think it's most helpful to leave physically.

Not sure if that helps any. Just what has shown helpful for myself. It isn't really your job to maneuver around cognitive disortions but rather the sufferer's job to locate them and challenge them. But I would say boundries are good here. "When you do X I will do Y". So when he has these cognitive disortions you won't carry the conversation any further and will leave for a bit. That would be a good boundry that would help. That boundry helps me too. It helps me to understand what is and isn't a cognitive disortion. If the person is leaving each time I start talking about one particular thing I would want to explore that and see if it's a cogitive disortion and then challenge it if it is. So boundries help both the supporter and sufferer.

 

[Hojay]

This is awesome @lostforgottensoul! It really explains all the options pretty well: Stop discussion. Stop and acknowledge. Or leave the room. It's also really good to have a reminder that these boundaries are very important for the other end too.

I've been working hard to find a good, sustainable protocol for all of the above. I think my biggest challenge at this point is really truly seeing when a cognitive distortion is taking place. I obviously see when a panic attack comes on. There's a good protocol in place for that. Cognitive distortions, however (prequels to actual panic attacks) are much harder to spot because they are delivered in a somewhat calm, if argumentative tone. So I argue and try to make my case, which a lot of times will result in a panic attack. So it's mostly only in hindsight that I understand, oh...he wasn't just being difficult or testy, we didn't just disagree about something. He was cognitively distorting the entire situation, either from the get-go or at some point, and I should have set a boundary sooner. I tap into that trap a lot.

Ugh...

 

[scout86]

Yes, it's very difficult with him to differentiate what is pure panic and what is anger direct toward me.

I probably didn't put that very clearly. I know he doesn't know how he sounds, or what effect it's having on you, but can you take it as "a PTSD thing" rather than as a personal attack? There actually IS a difference, but I can see how people are going to vary in their ability to deal with it.

even an "I love you!" screamed at you with a red-face and clenched teeth is hurtful

Well, I can see how it might seem that way, but I can also, really and truly, see how it could NOT seem that way. But, maybe there's not good way to explain what this is like, from the inside, to someone who hasn't been there. Here's a story. Let me be clear, this is my own experience, nothing more than that, but I think the general concept is typical of a lot of people with PTSD.

Once upon a time..... I'd had a lot of bad shit happen and wasn't handling it nearly as well as I thought I was. (Maybe that was minimizing a little. Four really important friends died in the space of 18 months. Flunked out of school. Crashed and totaled my truck. And had been working 80 hour weeks on maybe 4 hours of sleep a night for those 18 months. Probably other stuff I'm forgetting.) I was kind of aware that I probably had PTSD, but thought I had it handled and didn't need any help. I had a job that involved working nights. Long hours, lots of adrenaline. (It was fun. Got to risk my life every night & it really was fun.) I also had some horses. One had had a foal who had some major health issues. I was afraid he was going to die. He needed regular meds, My job was such that, if I played my cards right, I could sneak home in the middle of the night and treat him. It was a messy situation, I wasn't at ALL sure it was going to be ok, I was doing the best I could, but it didn't feel like enough. I spent a lot of time telling myself I was a miserable excuse for a human being. I'd let everyone in my life down, now I was letting this little colt down. I should probably just die and get it over with. And I was operating on almost no sleep, with no kind of support system at all. One morning, when I got home, worrying about all this, mind you, and I'd been worrying about it all night and all of the nights prior, but one morning when I got home, my landlord came out and started in on me about how I needed to take care of that colt. She went on and on about how irresponsible I was and she wouldn't quit. Finally, I literally went to my knees and BEGGED her to stop. I'm sure she thought I was nuts. I'm sure she also thought she was totally justified, because she didn't know I was sneaking home every few hours to take care of him. But, my view of that was that I was trapped and she was relentlessly attacking me and wouldn't let up. If I'd been less exhausted, or less down on myself, I probably would have fought back. HER view, I guess, was that she had a valuable point to make and I wasn't getting it. To this day, I have no idea what it would have taken to handle that situation better. I just stay way far away from people so they can't do that kind of thing to me.

I THINK (but don't know) that your SO probably feels pretty much like that. He can no more be rational that a dog who's caught in a trap can be expected to not bite you when you touch the trapped leg. I don't honestly have a memory of what "normal" is, but I suspect this isn't much like anything you've experienced. He's not doing it on purpose and he doesn't know how to do any better, as of yet.

Part of me thinks he also doesn't like that I take control in those moments and end the conversation on my terms.

That's possible, but if it's really a situation where his amygdala is running the show, he's probably not thinking about "control". That's a more complicated concept. He's more likely to be just thinking about what it's going to take to survive.

Cognitive distortions, however (prequels to actual panic attacks) are much harder to spot because they are delivered in a somewhat calm, if argumentative tone.

There might be more than just cognitive distortions involved. If he says he thinks he heard you say something you didn't actually say, that might be a cognitive distortion. But, it sounds like it's pretty hard to have any kind of a disagreement that feels safe, to him. That's a little different. That seems like it might be more him being triggered by conflict, or something like that.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

But, it sounds like it's pretty hard to have any kind of a disagreement that feels safe, to him. That's a little different. That seems like it might be more him being triggered by conflict, or something like that.

^^^ Yes, this!

I haven't had a chance to read all the replies so I am not up on the entire situation but a cognitive distoration is more like a thought. Like mind reading "she think's I'm a horrible person". Or something like that. A disagreement that triggers him to a panic attack absolutly sounds more like being triggered by conflict (unless it's about a specfic subject only then maybe it"s being triggered by that subject).

A trigger is named as such because it triggers an event to happen. Which, in this case, is a panic attack. So, you are dealing with a trigger it sounds like.

A few good reads is the stressor vs trigger thread:

Stressor vs. Trigger - What Is A Trigger?

And the PTSD cup explaination:

The Ptsd Cup Explanation

And I didn't get if he is military but if so then the combat PTSD stress cup explaination:

Imported - Combat PTSD Cup

I suspect this is a trigger and not just the PTSD stress cup overfilling but thought I'd include it anyway to help explain things a bit.