Relationship Can we talk about cognitive distortion?

[Buttercup]

He describes how after a stress response (Maybe some bad behavior) when the person comes "back to reality" they look for something or someone to blame for their reaction. "I did that because you were 10 minutes late," kind of thing. This is common in my situation unfortunately. The book is very, very good and also very interesting.

I am also reading Wayne Dyer's Change Your Thoughts, Change Your Life , which is his translation or interpretation of the Tao Te Ching. It is making me think of my responses to those stress reactions a little more, and what I can do to eliminate my part in things escalating. Be the Tao, live the Tao :D

 

[Hojay]

I’m down for the Tao :) Thanks for the rec @Buttercup!

 

[Abstract]

To derail the conversation in an annoying way: I actually think setting ones phone so that info isn't displayed is the most normal thing in the world for some who are dealing with hypervigilance. I find there isn't anything I do that doesn't mean I first have to overcome the impulse to give as little info as possible away. If someone questioned me on something like that I would think :confused:

But before you want to scream :arghh;out of frustration and I suspect feel not heard about your issue of being misunderstood in the moment - I have that right don't I? If we take away the cognitive distortion terminology - I do understand that you are fed up with having your motives misunderstood and it derailing both of your communication. I hear you. Noone wants to be thought of as someone completely different to who we are and especially in situations like this. In your example I am assuming your question wasn't totally random as am gathering you do have a history of needing honesty but regardless you were misunderstood. Yes?

As I was reading through this trying to engage with the cog dis side of things I was feeling like something wasn't quite right and have to say others here answered in a way I couldn't put together on my own. I'm not saying cog dis aren't an aspect of what is happening but with the little info available I'm not convinced they are the core thing going on here. They may be the backdrop but not what is center stage. I know you want to deal with them here first and foremost but I'm not sure that is going to work like you want it to.

If you want to deal with them (cogn dist) with him I would suggest discussing them only in a general conversational way away from intense conversations or disagreements. Maybe as schemas? I know he doesn't want to go anywhere near his past so that is a tricky one. Maybe as statements of who you are not and who you are?

Would it help you to write down his schemas and keep note of them? Maybe you could bring them into conversation when you get the opportunity. It also may help you avoid stepping on landmines if you have a clearer idea of the dimensions of those landmines. Step on a schema landmine and he will probably end up triggered to some extent or other. Triggered? No logic or conversation is going to work and you will only be harming yourself trying to reason things through. If you step on a schema landmine the best solution is an antidote to that schema. Conversation for another time and place.

When I first started therapy - it was for eating disorders and certainly not ptsd - I was way too fragile to be able to deal with the concept of cognitive distortions and for that to be helpful. CBT at the time did more damage to me. I think we can sometimes get to the same goal posts but using different vehicles. From how you are describing him and what has happened to him recently, he may need a different vehicle at this point.

Have you read any of Marsha Linahan's DBT stuff at all?

Please know I am not dismissing your feelings or the topic. Just trying to think of what is actually likely to work here, as well as getting to the core of what is going on, centrally. Not convinced cog distr are the answer for either.

 

[LuckiLee]

I have a question. Do you trust him? I went through a few of your posts and most of them are about trust. Either he doesn't trust you or you're not trusting him. If you trust him it doesn't matter what phone settings he uses or who he's texting. Imho.

I think this is more about you and your issue with trust. But I only know your side of things. Wishing you luck and I hope you both come up with a solution.

 

[shimmerz]

I merely want to figure out how to deal with cognitive distortions when they come on

I think what sufferers are trying to say in this posting though Hojay, is that it isn't quite that easy. Cognitive Distortions are put into place very firmly to protect us from threats. They help us keep safe and it is quite a process to dismantle them. There are huge trust issues that are underlying. It is like a web that keeps things all glued together these coping strategies. Many times there are flashbacks and panic attacks and body reactions that can wipe us out for days.

I get it. You want to be able to focus on one thing. But you see, if it was that simple sufferers would go to their T's and the T's would sit them down and say 'Okay, so see? You just said this which is so not true! Instead THIS is the truth! Just change how you think about it because I am telling you it isn't true.'

But T's don't. It takes them sometimes years to even get to cognitive distortions in a meaningful way because their sufferers need to know how to trust themselves to build safety for themselves first. Safety. Safety. Safety. Safety. Not Cog Dist. Cog Dist. Cog Dist.

There actually shouldn't even be this discussion about changing his thoughts until there is a firmly established go to place for him that is safe and secure. And what I hear from you is almost a defensiveness.

I'm not expecting him to be some sort of way. I don't judge him or hammer on him to "be better." I get what happens to him.

I am going to suggest that no, you don't get what happens to him. You think you do, but you don't at all. And yes, this whole posting is about him being the way you want him to be. Because it will be better for both of you. I don't think you are qualified to make the 'what is better for him' call.

Having a feeling of safety is better for him so that he can build up his window of tolerance. And that takes good hard work and mainly with a trained trauma T. Not someone who is invested in the outcome. And despite your protestations, you are absolutely invested in the outcome. And I have to be honest. If this is over a phone and the settings on that phone which don't suit you then I am going to say that I would have hit the high road as soon as I recognized you were continuing on about it even though it was clear what kind of a state I was being thrown into when it came up.

Honestly, he needs a T. I know there are barriers there but seriously, this man sounds like he is in great pain through these discussions. I am not saying that is your fault, but I do say that the format of these talks are not helpful to his issues at this point. All of this energy could be spent on searching for a T and helping him to secure trust again. Best of luck to you. I will step out of the conversation at this point.

 

[Hojay]

Would it help you to write down his schemas and keep note of them? Maybe you could bring them into conversation when you get the opportunity. It also may help you avoid stepping on landmines if you have a clearer idea of the dimensions of those landmines. Step on a schema landmine and he will probably end up triggered to some extent or other.

Thank you @Abstract for your whole post! This specifically is a great idea, mainly the suggestion to have a conversation about them in an isolated setting, away from anything else we have been discussing. Of course, he'd have to feel safe to discuss this with me, so I can only suggest it and see if he feels comfortable. But it would be great first step to find a road map for our discussions that feels safe for both of us.

You're also right to point out that cognitive distortions aren't the only issues here. I can only guess and pad around in the dark as to how it's all connected for him. I realize that what I'm seeing is just the tip of the iceberg. Of course I'd like to know what the actual issue is, but I can only work with what I see :(

CBT at the time did more damage to me. I think we can sometimes get to the same goal posts but using different vehicles. From how you are describing him and what has happened to him recently, he may need a different vehicle at this point.

I agree with you here. I think mainly, he needs a trained and highly skilled trauma T who can figure out what approach exactly he needs. The treatment he's received thus far sounded like pretty cookie-cutter trauma work, all of which did more harm than good. I'm obviously not qualified to determine that or suggest what treatment he needs. I just know he needs someone to take him by the hand and make a game plan with him.

I think this is more about you and your issue with trust.

There have been trust issues, yes. But that's not the main issue. Any and all issues I've had would have been done and over with one or two good conversations. We haven't been able to have those "good conversations." Or if we do, he does something else that leaves me scratching my head. I make the decision every day that I fundamentally trust him, or else we wouldn't still be together. Everything beyond that is really all pretty run of the mill relationship stuff that is complicated and blown out of proportion by PTSD communication problems.

But you see, if it was that simple sufferers would go to their T's and the T's would sit them down and say 'Okay, so see? You just said this which is so not true! Instead THIS is the truth! Just change how you think about it because I am telling you it isn't true.'

I don't think it's simple at all, nor do I want to get to the bottom of, dissect, and treat his cognitive distortions. They're there, they will be there until he's in adequate treatment. In the meantime, I want to know how I can react to and not escalate or worsen the situation when they arise, as well as protect myself and potentially our relationship from going down the drain because of them. The normal reaction to have someone accuse you of something you didn't say and then threaten you with consequences for it is to argue and explain. Arguing and explaining does no good here. So I'm looking for healthy alternatives.

And yes, this whole posting is about him being the way you want him to be.

The whole posting is about me finding tools and skills to keep my side of the yard clean. The discussion here veered into what these distortions are about and why they arise, but really, for me, it's about what I can do in those moments (or maybe long term) to keep my boundaries and not perpetuate the damage.

I don't think you are qualified to make the 'what is better for him' call.

Of course I'm not qualified. If it's better for him to leave me, then he should. I am qualified to say what is and isn't good for our relationship though, so that's why I'm here.

And despite your protestations, you are absolutely invested in the outcome.

Of course I am! Not sure where I said I'm not. I'm his partner, not his therapist.

If this is over a phone and the settings on that phone which don't suit you then...

It's not about the phone settings. That's why I was hesitant to even give an example to begin with. I know it's easy to take that example, or trust issues for that matter, and finger it as the problem. I wish it were! Heck, I'd have so much more control over the situation than I do now....

I value everyone's input on here. Every opinion helps! I'm sorry if I come off as defensive here and there, I really don't mean to. I'm just trying to keep this thread on topic. I've noticed the tendency of some (not all!!) sufferers coming into the supporter section and reading a lot into supporter questions and actions that isn't really there. I get it though, I mean all we (and responders) have any control over is our own (or the poster's) behavior. So it's kind of natural to look for the problem and issue there and assume the person just doesn't understand enough, get it enough, or has insurmountable issues of their own. But sadly, it's not that simple. I'm not perfect and have just as much baggage as the next gal, but I can honestly say, hand on my heart, that I've got my head screwed on straight and know what needs discussing and what doesn't. And when it does, I do it kindly, respectfully, and constructively. But that's not always enough when it comes to PTSD, as we all know, so that's why I'm here...

 

[Buttercup]

Thank you @Abstract for your whole post! This specifically is a great idea, mainly the...

Exactly! We have our own baggage and our own stuff we bring to these situations that make us react in ways that, while natural and understandable, are soooo not helpful! I hear ya and feel ya, Hojay! Just trying to get answers and skills to just not make things worse while also hoping to have productive communication with our partners that is really a foundation and cornerstone for all successful relationships. It's so very painful and frustrating for all involved!

I do value the sufferers input, though. Brings me a lot of insight.

 

[Hojay]

We have our own baggage and our own stuff we bring to these situations that make us react in ways that, while natural and understandable, are soooo not helpful!

Totally, buttercup! You've nailed it! And value sufferer input too, it really helps to get all sides. Heck, if I didn't have sufferer input and just had my well-meaning friends and family for reality checks, I'd have been out of here long ago. They just see the side that makes his behavior look erratic and to them it doesn't make sense that my natural reaction to things isn't always the right reaction--so I really wouldn't know what to do without this place :)

 

[Freida]

I had to kind of giggle this morning re-reading this thread. It's like trying to explain the color blue to a blind person. Everyone has a different idea of what "blue" is and they are all correct in their way of thinking. But when it comes to describing it to someone who can't see -- everyone has completely different ways to say "blue"

@Hojay I cannot imagine how hard it must be to always be the bad guy. He sounds like has his way of thinking and when that is challenged he goes off on a tangent and somehow it always comes back to being your fault. I'm sad to admit that I can see myself doing this to hubby. Lets say we are talking about milk. We get a bit heated about if 2% or whole milk is better, and then he says something that triggers me. Now I'm way upset but I don't realize I'm upset about the trigger. I think I'm upset about him not agreeing with me about milk. Because I don't know I've been triggered. I don't see it coming until it happens, and then it's too late. I just know that I'm agitated and unsafe and angry and scared --- because of him

Then I'm guessing he thinks I'm just being unreasonable about the milk. Because he also doesn't realize I've been triggered.
But even if he asked I wouldn't be able to tell him -- since I'm still learning what my triggers are. So now I'm all pissed off that I can't trust him and I want a divorce .....over milk.

good grief.

So how would we fix that? It's got to come down to ME learning my triggers and understanding how to react to them appropriately. Not him. He can't fix my reaction to my triggers.

And I think that's the biggest problem you have -- he doesn't want to do that work. I get that its because he is afraid, but look at what not addressing the problem is doing to both of you. I'm going to guess he has no idea how horribly you feel when hes off on a tangent. Sure, you can tell him, but making him understand is something different. I didn't have a clue until I started reading on this site and it has been very...... humbling.

I know you are trying to find specific skills and techniques to deescalate him when he gets like this. And hopefully some of the ideas you've gotten will help. But it may not be something YOU can do. Because you are too close to the situation and you are to safe for him. He knows he can go off on you because you are safe and you love him and will always forgive him.

I think you may have reached a place where you have to get outside help. You can't be the bad guy forever, and no amount of love can fix this part of him. Hopefully you can find a time when he is calm and try to help him see what this is doing to you. Then hopefully he will be willing to take some baby steps into counseling

yea, lots of hopefullys.....

 

[Tinyflame]

I think too each person has to be responsible for their own stuff. I think for anyone that gives us plenty to work on. JMHO though.

 

[Buttercup]

I don't see it coming until it happens, and then it's too late. I just know that I'm agitated and unsafe and angry and scared --- because of him

Freida, do you come to a place later when you realize you were triggered? Sorry if I've asked you this before, I feel like I might have. If you do come to that place, are you then able to see it wasn't about the milk at all but something you need to work on?

 

[Hojay]

Wow, Freida, it's kind of remarkable how much insight you have into what's going on on the other end. I mean, on top of what you're dealing with, you're putting a lot of thought into how this affects those supporting you. Hubby is lucky to have you, just saying :)

I cannot imagine how hard it must be to always be the bad guy. He sounds like has his way of thinking and when that is challenged he goes off on a tangent and somehow it always comes back to being your fault.

Exactly. This. He's at least somewhat able to reflect on this whole dynamic when he's calmer and he's doing his very best to somehow see my side of the equation. Really, that's the only reason (aside from loving him stupid) that I'm still willing to work on this...

Then I'm guessing he thinks I'm just being unreasonable about the milk. Because he also doesn't realize I've been triggered.

Well, hm...I do realize he's not being unreasonable about the milk at that moment. It'd really be too weird if it were about the milk. But it doesn't much matter because the words coming out of his mouth are about the milk...so any attempt at diverting the conversation to what it's really about is...impossible.

It's got to come down to ME learning my triggers and understanding how to react to them appropriately. Not him. He can't fix my reaction to my triggers.

What does hubby do, may I ask, when this happens? It sounds like you guys have a good system in place. How/why does it work? Just desperate curiosity here.

And I think that's the biggest problem you have -- he doesn't want to do that work.

I think he wants to and I think he thinks he is, but he's not in any sort of treatment, nor is he reading any books I know he knows about or is active in any support groups, so to me it looks more like avoidance and repressing. But what do I know right?

I think too each person has to be responsible for their own stuff. I think for anyone that gives us plenty to work on.

Absolutely, I'm totally responsible for my stuff. I own my part, including the fact that I'm still in this situation. I'm with him voluntarily, and I don't blame him for his limitations. I could opt out any time...or try and deal, which is what I've been doing :)