Childhood Child On Child Sexual Abuse?

[joeylittle]

I want to suggest that the euphemism "playing doctor" is not helpful in discerning abuse versus normal exploration.

I think it's the combination of 'playing' - which nearly labels it as 'not real' - and 'doctor', a powerful authority figure. I was actually thinking the same thing, anonymous, and am glad you said it. It's a colloquialism from a time when it was an excuse for all sorts of behavior. It's as easy to say 'exploring sexuality' as it is to say 'playing doctor', but it's more accurate and potentially less demeaning, for those who have suffered CSA of any kind.
/end threadjack

 

[Lucycat]

I want to suggest that the euphemism "playing doctor" is not helpful in discerning abuse versus normal exploration.

I was absolutely NOT using the term as a euphemism. I meant it literally. I had assumed others were doing the same.

I think it's the combination of 'playing' - which nearly labels it as 'not real' - and 'doctor', a powerful authority figure.

It was playing as in exploring real experiences through play. (In my case this included showing my 'privates' to a doctor). But there was more time spent playing with pretend bandages, and giving pretend medicines, working out how to apply a sling and putting on sticky plasters than any sexual exploration. I don't like the idea of the word 'play' being hijacked for hiding more sinister meanings.

 

[Powder]

I think this thread is a good one because when recently a little boy was overheard asking my daughter to close the door and play doctor, and I put a stop to it (gently) even though I was upset, personally, I was the only adult concerned about it.

I was aware that it's a dark gray area. Why close the door if it was just going to be 'play' that was okay?

(They were the same age.)

It is really hard to see the world through innocent eyes after having abuse and reading about it on the forum. The radar becomes too strong. It could be a harmless thing. But then I don't want my daughter being conditioned to do this kind of closed door play and then someone else taking advantage of that.

 

[Powder]

Amnesia is anything but "black and white." :wtf:

Anonymous, you remembered peritraumatic memories but not the actual trauma? I believe that actually is an accurate description of a period of traumatic amnesia, now ended.

I'm sorry that anyone of us has to go though all this. :cry: The abuse, the betrayal, the amnesia, and then the PTSD and other stuff. We truly do soldier on.

Especially, when it slaps a person down with massive flashbacks later that removes all question about whether it was abusive by any measure.

 

[joeylittle]

But there was more time spent playing with pretend bandages, and giving pretend medicines, working out how to apply a sling and putting on sticky plasters than any sexual exploration.

I think this is a cultural difference. In the US, 'playing doctor' is used much more narrowly, to specifically describe the action of young children taking their clothes off in front of each other and/or 'examining' the areas of the body that are usually hidden by clothing.

Someone in the US can correct me if I'm wrong - but the common result of playing doctor is seeing and/or physically interacting with the genitalia of someone near your own age and/or opposite sex for the first time. The curiosity is rooted in how those opposite parts work, OR what it's like to see a same part from the outside, as an observer.

So I think here in america, it's pretty much always been the name of a game that is somewhat taboo (because it involves hidden sex organs) but common (because children at a certain age become fascinated with their genitalia - usually they've recently learned the word for it, and that combined with the onset of wearing clothes as a requirement - covering up - turns it all into something kids hide from parents but can't avoid being curious about).

So, that's how a normal part of early human development - the discovery of the sex organs - turns into a 'game' that has to be called by a euphemism, because talking about sex is scary/taboo/not for common conversation/whatever.

A little bit of research is showing me that yes, in the UK 'doctors and nurses' involves actually doing things with stethoscopes.

 

[EveHarrington]

I think it's the combination of 'playing' - which nearly labels it as 'not real' - and 'doctor', a p...

I think it can be harmful when abuse is excused as "JUST playing doctor". I can see that. However, I don't think it's a great idea to tarnish a normal childhood curiosity as it could lead to shame and sexual repression.

 

[EveHarrington]

I think this is a cultural difference. In the US, 'playing doctor' is used much more narrowly, to s...

I'm glad you bring this up! I sometimes forget about cultural differences here on the forum and I suspect that it's at play here in this discussion.

 

[mary1979]

I think it can be harmful when abuse is excused as "JUST playing doctor". I can see that. However...

Such a darned fine line isn't it?
Pretty sure I mentioned somewhere on this forum about an incident with my 10 year old and her same age step brother and two pubescent step sisters that happened a couple years ago at step mums.

NONE of the kids were traumatised in any way shape or form by their curious game, until an idiot adult with a chip on her shoulder and a bad case of overreaction shamed the whole lot of them into feeling dirty and disgusting and like they had just commited a mortal sin that would send them straight to hell.

3 years later I am still wild about what my child was exposed to because that idiot couldn't get past her own fkn shame to deal with her kids natural explorations without screwing them all up just like her.
Retard.

Its not bloody rocket science.
And being a victim yourself is NO excuse to offload your issues on innocent kids.

See that I'm a little sensitive about this one? Lols.
Sorry about that. Long day.

 

[Socha]

There were some things that got to me in this thread and I took some time to think about it. My opinion on this hasn’t changed but my intention was never to offend anyone either. I just don’t always have the energy to wrap everything up with a nice bow on top.

I don't like how you are treating people on the forum.

Even though you worded it a bit differently I felt like I was being told that I’m treating people badly on the forum and I thought about it a lot. I tried to see my behavior on this forum as objectively as I can and I think we have to agree to disagree on that one too because I’m actually someone who’s always willing to help when someone is in need and I really don’t care who it is, whether it’s a friend, a stranger or even someone I don’t like. If someone needs help I’ll try my best even though I might not always be able to provide the help that is needed or have all the magic answers. All I can do is listen, share my experience and what has worked for me personally.

I do have opinions on certain things though and considering the fact that I’m just one out of 7.something billion people who’s struggling to make it through the day just like everyone else, it’s impossible to always express them in a way everyone always agrees with me and that’s ok. I’d rather have people disagreeing with me than disagreeing with myself.

 

[MariaPhd2b]

I feel like I'm still coming to terms with my childhood, memories still coming back... I'm not even sure if these par...

In my training, molestation between siblings as a legal definition had to be a case where the abuser was at least 5 years older than the victim. However, as a clinician (and in my own personal experience) I would see this as a potential case of group child molestation where the abuser had access to all the children in a household, or the primary victim was acting out the abuse (because this is how children process trauma) and the other children were being "infected" by the primary victim, which is equally traumatic. This may explain your situation and guilt. In one case I observed, the trauma to the first child occurred by the oldest child who was affected by a neighbor man. Sadly, the primary child was viewed as the abuser (because he raped his sister and was 5 years older) so he was placed in foster care. That usually only complicates the problem for the primary child. In their case, the younger brother (who was less than 6 at the time) acted out on one of my daughters during a sleep over in a similar way as you. The actual abuser eventually used all the neighbor children in this way to condition them for his purposes. It is an insidious situation that often develops into what we call vicarious trauma. Vicarious trauma is just as damaging as experienced trauma, so your pain and guilt makes perfect sense.

What most people do not understand is, whether vicarious or experienced, trauma affects the human soul with undeserved shame. It was not your fault. The only responsibility you had in the situation was that you trusted your siblings. Once you can forgive yourself for that, you can recover and (possibly) forgive your siblings.

I would encourage you to meet with a therapist and discuss your situation with him or her. That therapist will be better equipped to advise you in working through the shame and trauma. That must be worked before working through your sibling relationships.

FYI, I no longer speak to my siblings. It is a difficult and complex thing to do, and I have a doctorate in psychology!

God bless your healing!

 

[MariaPhd2b]

I think this is a cultural difference. In the US, 'playing doctor' is used much more narrowly, to s...

While I agree with most of what you said, the one thing I would caution is how this behavior is also often how children act out trauma that has been imposed on them, as well as the physical stimulation that can come with molestation. Children are also seeking out the repeat of the pleasure. As much as they are ashamed by what occurs when they are molested, their body responds to the pleasure which may complicate the issue with more shame.

Children who are sexualized too early (prior to puberty) because of either molestation or seeing sex on t.v. can exhibit this behavior as well. This is why you may see it as simple taboo issues when it may be much more serious.

 

[joeylittle]

@MariaTPhD - you have an account; we'd prefer it if you log on through there, instead of posting as a guest.

Thanks!