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Um, also, I was raised Roman Catholic and part of that will never leave me. I love Jesus. I love God. He has shown me things I could never have imagined. So please be assured that not all Democrats are anti-Christian. To me, Jesus' primary message is basically inscribed in the Democratic platform. Love one another. Treat others as you would wish to be treated.
In the parish I was raised in, some of the priests went to the March on Washington.in August 1963, along with some parishioners. My mom wanted to go, but I was a month-old baby at the time (and a premie), so she didn't. Possibly that era drew the modern lines between Republicans and Democrats. Democrats were for civil rights. LBJ, a Democrat, signed the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act. Many Republicans were against those, perhaps most notably, George Wallace.
That line's been drawn in the sand ever since. Again, there are supremely good reasons why the vast majority of black Americans vote Democrat.
In the parish I was raised in, some of the priests went to the March on Washington.in August 1963, along with some parishioners. My mom wanted to go, but I was a month-old baby at the time (and a premie), so she didn't. Possibly that era drew the modern lines between Republicans and Democrats. Democrats were for civil rights. LBJ, a Democrat, signed the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act. Many Republicans were against those, perhaps most notably, George Wallace.
That line's been drawn in the sand ever since. Again, there are supremely good reasons why the vast majority of black Americans vote Democrat.
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Justmehere
Sponsor
There are extremists in both parties. There is an alt left just as much as there is an alt right. They don't currently define the platform of either party - although they do probably have some (currently) limited influence.
What concerns me most as a voter is how Trump or Clinton handles people with dangerous views within their own party.
It's happened many times that people in a democracy eventually feel a strong pull towards authoritarianism. Heck, even in the Bible the same pattern happened. Regardless if someone sees it as fiction or fact, the bible was written long before the founding of our country and we can see this principle playing out there. In the old testament, the Isrealities had a non-strongman style of government through what they called "judges." The people got tired and frustrated and demanded a king, despite the warnings that it would come at a very high cost. Strong men style leadership always come at a cost.
It wasn't people with low education that voted in Hitler, so I don't think the issue is a lack of education alone. From are article in Forbes,
How Dictators Come To Power In A Democracy,
"Why, then, did the highly educated Germans embrace a lunatic like Adolf Hitler? The short answer is that bad policies caused economic, military and political crises – chow time for tyrants. German circumstances changed for the worse, and when people become angry enough or desperate enough, sometimes they’ll support crazies who would never attract a crowd in normal circumstances."
On the other side of the debate, $12,500 medical bill for an MRI that's not covered by insurance can lead to medical bankruptcy. I've been through it. (And I'm still not a fan of single payer healthcare - but that's perhaps a different debate.)
I am most concerned about how Trump usually praises dictators for how strong and controlling their leaders are, and that worries me more than those calling for big government solutions for problems we are facing. Both Trump and Clinton see themselves running big strong governments. Trump sees himself as more than president. I believe that his position, "I alone can fix it," is in opposition to the principle that this nation is run by "we the people."
What concerns me is that Trump takes his support of strong leadership to a much further place. I don't want my president on Russian sponsored TV praising semi-elected dictator Putin.
What concerns me most as a voter is how Trump or Clinton handles people with dangerous views within their own party.
It's happened many times that people in a democracy eventually feel a strong pull towards authoritarianism. Heck, even in the Bible the same pattern happened. Regardless if someone sees it as fiction or fact, the bible was written long before the founding of our country and we can see this principle playing out there. In the old testament, the Isrealities had a non-strongman style of government through what they called "judges." The people got tired and frustrated and demanded a king, despite the warnings that it would come at a very high cost. Strong men style leadership always come at a cost.
It wasn't people with low education that voted in Hitler, so I don't think the issue is a lack of education alone. From are article in Forbes,
How Dictators Come To Power In A Democracy,
"Why, then, did the highly educated Germans embrace a lunatic like Adolf Hitler? The short answer is that bad policies caused economic, military and political crises – chow time for tyrants. German circumstances changed for the worse, and when people become angry enough or desperate enough, sometimes they’ll support crazies who would never attract a crowd in normal circumstances."
No doubt about that!
On the other side of the debate, $12,500 medical bill for an MRI that's not covered by insurance can lead to medical bankruptcy. I've been through it. (And I'm still not a fan of single payer healthcare - but that's perhaps a different debate.)
I am most concerned about how Trump usually praises dictators for how strong and controlling their leaders are, and that worries me more than those calling for big government solutions for problems we are facing. Both Trump and Clinton see themselves running big strong governments. Trump sees himself as more than president. I believe that his position, "I alone can fix it," is in opposition to the principle that this nation is run by "we the people."
What concerns me is that Trump takes his support of strong leadership to a much further place. I don't want my president on Russian sponsored TV praising semi-elected dictator Putin.
scout86
VIP Member
That, right there, is the biggest problem I have with BOTH parties and it's the reason I'm sick to death of this whole mess. From what I've seen, BOTH 'sides' in political discourse in this country specialize in vilifying anyone who's not one of 'them'.
I had a close friend who described himself as a fundamentalist Christian and a conservative. At the time, I'd have described myself as an agnostic and no one has ever called me anything approaching 'conservative'. We had a series of long running debates/discussions about every topic imaginable. In the end, what we found is that we had the same basic values. We valued truth. We valued respect. We valued education. We valued work. We thought all people were equally worthy of a chance in life, regardless of the circumstances of their birth. We just approached solving problems from different directions. There was value in both points of very. But NEITHER of us wanted Grandma living under a bridge, or people sponging off the system when they were capable of working.
What I think I'm seeing in our country is the political parties making use of perceived differences. They are deliberately setting people against each other. They are dividing the country into 'us and them', not because that's a real thing, but because it suits their purposes. It's like choosing sides on a playground, in a way. Except that the 'winner' is the side that ends up with the most voters on their 'team'. Doesn't matter if any of it is true. Doesn't matter if any of it even makes sense. All they really care about is that they 'win' the election so they can get or maintain power. It's all about who can do the best job of manipulating the voters. The losers in all this are the people.
@RussH , I'm not a fan of Hillary Clinton at all and I'm not planning to vote for her. But, I can't understand how the followers of Jesus Christ can support someone like Donald Trump, who is so overtly hateful and mean. Have you read the story about the rape accusations that joeylittle posted a link to? Did you hear what he said about the woman from Fox who ran some of the early debates? (Can't remember her name.) How can someone who comes off as kind and respectful, as you consistently do, support someone so crude?
Words that turn around and bite the arse of the person who said / wrote them
https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/774062203213385728/photo/1
https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/774062203213385728/photo/1
lostforgottensoul
VIP Member
Reading the comments on that makes me digusted at this country and how we have all turned on each other. Its very sad!
And yes, I agree those words are going to bite her in the ass!
It is not that I support Trump, I am totally against Hilary.
scout86
VIP Member
That I can understand.
Being drawn into the game of voting for (which means you are legitimising by giving your consent to) something because it is the lesser of two evils...
is being drawn into an abuser's game.
Just like with narcissists (which IMO Trump is, and IMO Hitlery is just a psychopath), you'll never win by being drawn into playing their games.
Entering into their game is the losing move.
Etienne de la Boetie* asks "How does one man (or woman) oppress ten million?"
and the answer to that has to be "because they consent to it", there is no other way that it is possible.
Later history has shown that de la Boetie was correct; you don't want a Robspierre a Napoleon, a Lenin a Mao, or a Pol Pot!
"there is no need to lay hands on the tyrant, simply withdraw your consent and like withdrawing the plinth from under a mighty statue, he will fall to the ground and smash, just as surely as if he had been pushed".
That has been street tested and it works, It explicitly formed the basis of Ghandi's de-legitimising the British Empire in India.
Here is an excerpt from Ghandi's translation (from Russian into English) of Count Leo Tolstoy's "Letter to a Hindu" which is where Ghandi got the idea.
__________________________________
* English translation of de la Boetie's essay "discourse on volountary servitude" from the year 1553, as free downloads in .pdf epub and (zipped) audio book. https://mises.org/library/politics-obedience-discourse-voluntary-servitude
is being drawn into an abuser's game.
Just like with narcissists (which IMO Trump is, and IMO Hitlery is just a psychopath), you'll never win by being drawn into playing their games.
Entering into their game is the losing move.
Etienne de la Boetie* asks "How does one man (or woman) oppress ten million?"
and the answer to that has to be "because they consent to it", there is no other way that it is possible.
Later history has shown that de la Boetie was correct; you don't want a Robspierre a Napoleon, a Lenin a Mao, or a Pol Pot!
"there is no need to lay hands on the tyrant, simply withdraw your consent and like withdrawing the plinth from under a mighty statue, he will fall to the ground and smash, just as surely as if he had been pushed".
That has been street tested and it works, It explicitly formed the basis of Ghandi's de-legitimising the British Empire in India.
Here is an excerpt from Ghandi's translation (from Russian into English) of Count Leo Tolstoy's "Letter to a Hindu" which is where Ghandi got the idea.
https://archive.org/details/ALetterToAHindu
__________________________________
* English translation of de la Boetie's essay "discourse on volountary servitude" from the year 1553, as free downloads in .pdf epub and (zipped) audio book. https://mises.org/library/politics-obedience-discourse-voluntary-servitude
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