DHEA... Wonder Drug???

[QuietNow]

DHEA, PTSD, and cortisol

Please be careful when adding DHEA to your system. While in some people the depression symptoms lessen, other people see their depression worsen.

DHEA is a precursor chemical to several important hormones in the body: progesterone, cortisol, estradiol (estrogen precursor), and testosterone to name a few. It's a very complicated cycle.

High cortisol in the body does not necessarily mean that increasing the DHEA will fix the depression. DHEA does impact serotonin levels in the brain. But if the DHEA-S and Cortisol levels are high, then adding more DHEA can actually decrease serotonin. The pathway is not definitively understood yet. If you read the literature, PTSD-affected individuals have high cortisol levels or low cortisol levels, but rarely the normal cyclical rate of a PTSD-unaffected person.

I would think twice about starting DHEA for another very good reason. Increasing DHEA could increase other hormonal chemicals (estrogen, testosterone) in a negative fashion. If you are at risk for certain cancers, DO NOT take this.

7-Keto DHEA is a downstream product (metabolite) of the DHEA cycle. It does not turn into the sex hormones that DHEA does. There was a 'letter to the editor' in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry in Mar 2006 (vol 67(3)) authors=Sageman and Brown, that reported interesting results with 5 women who had treatment-resistant chronic PTSD. The 5 took 7-Keto DHEA and the letter reported that all 5 "experienced a rapid and substantial reduction in their trauma and affective symptoms."

DO NOT read that paragraph above as 'Hey, go out and try 7-Keto DHEA' though. This is a preliminary result on a sample of 5 individuals that may not have been properly run. A letter to the editor is usually done when you have interesting results but not enough to warrant a full peer-reviewed article, but you want to get your name out there on the results ASAP. I haven't seen any research since on it, so I don't know if the researchers abandoned it or are working on the DHEA route instead.

It's interesting, and I'll admit high curiosity myself. But SAM-e supposedly is another 'cure' for depression and taking SAM-e nearly caused me to suicide (that's NOT an exaggeration. The effect was severe and very bad.).

What I'm getting at here is that DHEA itself could increase other sex hormone levels that are undesirable. 7-Keto DHEA sounds like a safer bet to get to the serotonin effects without bumping up some hormone levels. But this is definitely something to approach with **EXTREME** caution. Taking DHEA could have some negative interactions with certain drugs that most of us are on.

If you are on meds, talk to your doctor about it first. If you are determined to take it while on meds even if your doctor discourages you, be up front with the doctor about your determination.

Let me repeat that because it is very important and there are some people who just don't believe that an over-the-counter can hurt them: If you are on meds, talk to your doctor about it first. If you are determined to take it while on meds even if your doctor discourages you, be up front with the doctor about your determination.

And if you are going to try DHEA, why not go a more gentle route first and try adding Fish Oil to your diet. Omega-3's also help increase serotonin levels and this is processed naturally by the body so it's less damaging. Besides, you'll have a healthy coat. :wink:

 

[QuietNow]

And I should have emphasized the "DHEA having negative effects with certain drugs."

Most of us are on something to adjust serotonin levels. DHEA could affect serotonin levels. Therefore, you may need less of the other stuff OR the other stuff may interact with DHEA in a Very Bad Way.

Or DHEA alone could increase depression. I've seen just as many anecdotal descriptions of it increasing the despair.

Try to understand what you are doing. Approach with extreme caution. Treat over-the-counter supplements like you would treat your tablesaw --cautious and making sure to decrease possibility of injury to body.

 

[cragger65]

QuietNow, I learned this the hard way. In all the reading I have done so far, it only mentioned those specifically with bipolar condition as being at risk, but it did, indeed worsen my depression at 50mg/day (I am not bipolar, that I am aware). I have adjusted downward to 25mg, and may discontinue altogether, I'm undecided yet.

I guess the old adage is true... if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is. The odd thing is that in the beginning, there was a significant boost to my mood and energy level, beyond what could be dismissed as placebo effect. However, obviously brain chemistry is not a simple game, and the positive effect turned into a negative backlash.

I hope I have not mislead anyone into dangerous territory. It sounded and felt very promising, and I do not dismiss DHEA as an option completely as yet, but absolutely, approach with caution and pay very close attention to your mood if you decide to try it.

I am going to investigate 7-Keto DHEA to satisfy my own curiosity, thanks for the info.

NOTE: I have also had bad experiences with 5-HTP, recommended by a naturopath. It is meant to increase seritonin and melatonin for better mood and sleep, but put me flat on my back for 2 weeks. Apparantly, what works for "normal" people can be highly detrimental to PTSD/depression sufferers.

Dave

 

[Deleted member 541]

Dave,

I tried 5-HTP, I think last year...Didn't do anything for me at all. At least I tried.....And you are doing the same....Keep trying different stuff and someday, something may just work, and work well.....

 

[cragger65]

I hope so Wendy, thanks for the encouragement to keep trying. I'm going to focus again on the old faithfuls of nutrition, excercise and social contact. They are the mainstays for anyone, I think. Thanks again.

 

[cragger65]

Of course, this is one man's experience and cannot be construed as the final word on the topic, but I found it interesting that he had an identical reaction as my own to ordinary DHEA, but found 7-Keto DHEA to have quite a different effect. I've ordered a small amount of 7-Keto DHEA to give it a whirl (hey, for $18 including shipping, it's worth another stab at it) and will post my experiences with this variation. Thank you again QuietNow for your excellent info on the topic.
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Excerpt from the article:

DHEA, The Next Generation
by James South MA
(smart-drugs.com/ias-DHEA.htm)

I have been interested in DHEA since 1984. However, my personal experience with DHEA was disappointing. I found DHEA to induce a severe depression after only 1-3 doses. I retried DHEA about a dozen times between 1984 to 1996, always getting the same rapid-onset depression. I talked to a doctor colleague, who reported that she had the same response to DHEA, and that some 5-10% of her patients who tried DHEA also experienced a relatively rapid onset of depression (1 - 10 days). I began taking 7-keto DHEA in the fall of 1998, hoping for a different response. Much to my surprise, I found 7-keto DHEA experientially very different from DHEA. I have been taking 7-keto DHEA for about 18 months now, gradually reducing my dose from 25 mg/day to 10-15 mg/day. I have found 7-keto DHEA to be an energy enhancer, anti-cortisol stress reducer, and general revitalizing agent. I have gradually dropped 20 pounds of weight, have experienced a significant thinning of my face away from the classic cortisol "moon face" I was developing in recent years. I consider 7-keto DHEA one of my core anti-aging supplements. I have also used 7-keto DHEA to quickly revive 2 cats traumatized from combined surgical/anaesthesia/vaccine stress. My wife finds 7-keto DHEA to be the single most energizing supplement she's ever taken.

 

[Lilac]

I have found DHEA extremely valuable for at least 10 years. I am a woman in my 60s, with lifelong problems with depression and anxiety, and PTSD symptoms as well. Much of this got worse at menopause. I have tried many anti-depressants, with bad reactions to many of them, in particular all the SSRIS - I get agitated on them.

I started DHEA to see if it would help with hot flashes and night sweats, and it did, and it also is definitely very very effective for me in relation to my depression - I am not depressed any more, I do not wake up depressed any more (I did for most of my life). I also take a med called Selegiline, 15 mg a day. (It is something like an MAO inhibitor, with a somewhat different chemistry, so you can take up to 15 mg of it a day without having to follow the MAO diet. It is not recommended for depression, except in an expensive patch, but it works for some people, and for me it works - in tablet form only, the capsule is just not the same for me.)

At present I take 50-75 mg of DHEA per day. I have taken more, but this seems to be enough. In depression research, such as it is, people take big doses, up to 150 mg/day; in research about other things, I see people taking 5 mg day. I do notice the difference if I stop. I trust most the product from Life Extension Foundation, though I can report that the Vitamin Shoppe product works. I am aware that we don't know what we're getting here, and I think LEF is highly regarded as to purity of product.

As most readers probably know, all these medications affect different people differently - I have worked in this field, though not as an MD, for a long time so I've had a chance to learn this over and over.

Side effects include some reversal of menopausal body changes - it is good for my skin and I think for my waistline, and it also is a libido-raiser.