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- #49
anthony
Founder
Both... I won't discriminate between them. :coffee:
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Discussing The Colorodo Shooting & Gun Laws
- Post starter Nicolette
- Start date
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Wasn't there a report back somewhere about a 19 year old who just attended her husband's funeral. She returned home with her 4 month old baby that night. 2 large men tried to break down her door. She recognised them as being at her funeral. They were people she didn't know, they came to her funeral to see if they could attack her. They were thumping on the door, just knocked it down, when she pelted the first one with the bullets in her pistol she had pointing at them.The second criminal ran away and was later arrested.
I am quite supportive of guns in this situation of defence, imagine what they could have done to her and her child had she not had the weapon with her.
Then you have to wonder at statistics. Crime in America is actually lower than in Canada due to people not attacking people on the street in Amercia because the criminals don't want to get shot.
My husband is a national champion shooter at one stage, and he actually got a healthy respect for being careful with people's lives out of guns.
I think guns have a positive role in some situations. There is no blanket" Guns are bad" idea that is true.
However there isn't any need for a 24 year old who has insanity to have guns. It just seems to be insane to have a society to allow this situation where automatic weapons are available to as cheerios.
There should be a balance. I think it is somewhere in between America and Australia.
I am quite supportive of guns in this situation of defence, imagine what they could have done to her and her child had she not had the weapon with her.
Then you have to wonder at statistics. Crime in America is actually lower than in Canada due to people not attacking people on the street in Amercia because the criminals don't want to get shot.
My husband is a national champion shooter at one stage, and he actually got a healthy respect for being careful with people's lives out of guns.
I think guns have a positive role in some situations. There is no blanket" Guns are bad" idea that is true.
However there isn't any need for a 24 year old who has insanity to have guns. It just seems to be insane to have a society to allow this situation where automatic weapons are available to as cheerios.
There should be a balance. I think it is somewhere in between America and Australia.
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- #51
anthony
Founder
You would have to add a bit more than Australia, as the majority of countries have strict gun laws... America is a minority of countries who flaunt guns as a solution / right.
Australia, UK, China, shit, add most of Europe into that, other than a few nasty crime ridden countries within Europe. You could add a good 70 - 80% of countries where guns are not readily available or easy to obtain.
Australia, UK, China, shit, add most of Europe into that, other than a few nasty crime ridden countries within Europe. You could add a good 70 - 80% of countries where guns are not readily available or easy to obtain.
Innordinate
VIP Member
Unfortunate, all the countries that have decent gun laws are trying to find a way, using people's "rights", to make guns more available.
I still say. My right to send my kids to a movie without fear of them being shot at, far exceeds anyone's right to own a gun.
Also, Canada does not, as a whole have a higher crime rate than the states. A lot higher property crime rate. Not violent, gun related crime or murder rate. The US is still much much higher in that respect. It's not a matter of fear here as it is a trust. Most Canadians don't have alarm systems. Doors are unlocked in a lot of communities, including city residential areas.
You can go back and forth with the whole 'I'm not a victim because I had a gun and shot my would be attackers'
I could throw out there, (I can't remember if it was last year or the year before) an 11 year old boy trick or treating with his family was shot multiple times through a door that he knocked on for candy.
Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.
That's not the point. The point is, it's too easy to kill someone with a gun. You don't even have to see the person you kill. Just *poof* gone.
I still say. My right to send my kids to a movie without fear of them being shot at, far exceeds anyone's right to own a gun.
Also, Canada does not, as a whole have a higher crime rate than the states. A lot higher property crime rate. Not violent, gun related crime or murder rate. The US is still much much higher in that respect. It's not a matter of fear here as it is a trust. Most Canadians don't have alarm systems. Doors are unlocked in a lot of communities, including city residential areas.
You can go back and forth with the whole 'I'm not a victim because I had a gun and shot my would be attackers'
I could throw out there, (I can't remember if it was last year or the year before) an 11 year old boy trick or treating with his family was shot multiple times through a door that he knocked on for candy.
Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.
That's not the point. The point is, it's too easy to kill someone with a gun. You don't even have to see the person you kill. Just *poof* gone.
CraftyCath
VIP Member
I wish to interject something here. Mass shootings are horrific and seem to be occurring more frequently.
In the UK we have had the Hungerford massacre where a man (who I will not name so as not to give him any glory) shot and killed sixteen people including his mother, and wounded fifteen others, then fatally shot himself. He was armed with two semi-automatic rifles and a handgun. This led to the UK Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 which banned the ownership of semi-automatic centre-fire rifles and restricted the use of shotguns with a magazine capacity of more than three rounds. This man possessed guns illegally.
In 1996 a man entered a primary school in Dunblane, Scotland armed with four handguns, shooting and killing sixteen children and one adult before committing suicide. His weaponry was legally held.
In 2010 a lone gunman killed 12 people and injured 11 others before killing himself in Cumbria, UK. This led to
the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 and the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997, which effectively made private ownership of handguns illegal in the United Kingdom." weapons were found in his car. This man was a licensed gun owner.
The killing of 69 people (most of the young) in Norway this year was another tragedy. I believe guns are banned in Norway and this man, a terrorist (again, no name so no false glory), smuggled his weapons in from Prague in the Czech Republic which has free access to guns.
So, my point. Americans have the right to bear arms but so were to of the 4 above mentioned. It didn't stop them doing what they did.
My second point is that after every massacre in the UK public shock and outcry lead to parliament tightening gun laws. Our government listened and acted (which is a miracle!), that's what governments are for.
One young foreign student was shot and killed on the streets of Manchester by someone who didn't know him and was just looking for someone to kill. Despite our tight laws, guns can be got quite easily for those who know how to get them. Our police force has been cut back and since the abolition of guns, knife crime has increased tremendously, even to kids carrying kitchen knives. They are now starting to sell kitchen knives with rounded ends to stop them being used this way.
In Norway they have strict controls and crime like this is rare but it shows that for the determined mad man it can still be done. Those who want to will. But we countries should still have tighter control, preferably bans as it does lessen crime.
Not to offend any Americans (I have relations in America), but it is widely known in the UK that a lot of young people are emulating American gang culture, even to the point of speaking with that hip-hop kind of speech. These gangs are increasing and are very dangerous and the majority of them carry weapons. Gang killings and violence are on the increase in the UK.
This is so true. How do you care for someone who doesn't realise they have a problem or knows they do but refuses to do anything about it? Mental health problems are very high in UK cities and, unfortunately, there just isn't the help available even for those who do want it. It is not unusual for someone who has sought help but isn't getting the help they need to kill others and then kill themselves. (Not an excuse for their behaviour, just a fact).
In the UK we have had the Hungerford massacre where a man (who I will not name so as not to give him any glory) shot and killed sixteen people including his mother, and wounded fifteen others, then fatally shot himself. He was armed with two semi-automatic rifles and a handgun. This led to the UK Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 which banned the ownership of semi-automatic centre-fire rifles and restricted the use of shotguns with a magazine capacity of more than three rounds. This man possessed guns illegally.
In 1996 a man entered a primary school in Dunblane, Scotland armed with four handguns, shooting and killing sixteen children and one adult before committing suicide. His weaponry was legally held.
In 2010 a lone gunman killed 12 people and injured 11 others before killing himself in Cumbria, UK. This led to
the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 and the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997, which effectively made private ownership of handguns illegal in the United Kingdom." weapons were found in his car. This man was a licensed gun owner.
The killing of 69 people (most of the young) in Norway this year was another tragedy. I believe guns are banned in Norway and this man, a terrorist (again, no name so no false glory), smuggled his weapons in from Prague in the Czech Republic which has free access to guns.
So, my point. Americans have the right to bear arms but so were to of the 4 above mentioned. It didn't stop them doing what they did.
My second point is that after every massacre in the UK public shock and outcry lead to parliament tightening gun laws. Our government listened and acted (which is a miracle!), that's what governments are for.
One young foreign student was shot and killed on the streets of Manchester by someone who didn't know him and was just looking for someone to kill. Despite our tight laws, guns can be got quite easily for those who know how to get them. Our police force has been cut back and since the abolition of guns, knife crime has increased tremendously, even to kids carrying kitchen knives. They are now starting to sell kitchen knives with rounded ends to stop them being used this way.
In Norway they have strict controls and crime like this is rare but it shows that for the determined mad man it can still be done. Those who want to will. But we countries should still have tighter control, preferably bans as it does lessen crime.
Not to offend any Americans (I have relations in America), but it is widely known in the UK that a lot of young people are emulating American gang culture, even to the point of speaking with that hip-hop kind of speech. These gangs are increasing and are very dangerous and the majority of them carry weapons. Gang killings and violence are on the increase in the UK.
This is so true. How do you care for someone who doesn't realise they have a problem or knows they do but refuses to do anything about it? Mental health problems are very high in UK cities and, unfortunately, there just isn't the help available even for those who do want it. It is not unusual for someone who has sought help but isn't getting the help they need to kill others and then kill themselves. (Not an excuse for their behaviour, just a fact).
The Albatross
VIP Member
Right now they have a serial stabber, stabbing homeless people in Los Angeles. Should we consider banning the ownership of anything sharper than a butter knife?
I have a hard time hearing or reading issues around the theater shooting that include tighter weapons bans or restrictions considering my own Federal Government (Fast and furious) was literally gun walking and also there is another version of this occuring now in Yemen.
I read an article that stuck with me... putting the shooting into (for me) perspective. Every week in Chicago there are something like (can't directly quote, so going off memory)... 8 homicides and 40 injuries . Gun ownership isn't the problem, crime is the problem. (and yes, we belong to the NRA)
I have a hard time hearing or reading issues around the theater shooting that include tighter weapons bans or restrictions considering my own Federal Government (Fast and furious) was literally gun walking and also there is another version of this occuring now in Yemen.
I read an article that stuck with me... putting the shooting into (for me) perspective. Every week in Chicago there are something like (can't directly quote, so going off memory)... 8 homicides and 40 injuries . Gun ownership isn't the problem, crime is the problem. (and yes, we belong to the NRA)
- Post starter
- Moderator
- #55
Nicolette
Supporter Admin
While sad, an attack with a knife has a lesser chance of instant death compared to a shot gun as you have to be close and in contact in order to injure or kill - with a gun you can shoot and kill from a distance. I feel the butter knife analogy is being a little dramatic. We do have laws in Australia relating to such 'weapons' and some of them are illegal but not the home kitchen steak knife.
Isn't this a different discussion? I though we were discussing mass murders from guns. Crime is everywhere but 40 injuries is not 40 deaths IMHO. I am sure each country has crime statistics. My understanding of this thread is the ability of a person to legally obtain weaponry and kill so many innocent people. Crime is not legal - it is crime so it is not endorsed behavior or actions.
From Wikipedia: Crime is the breach of rules or laws for which some governing authority (via mechanisms such as legal systems) can ultimately prescribe a conviction.
Also... the statistics for this one event are 12 people dead and 59 injured, according to authorities - that means that in less than one hour one person committed more crimes than the entire population of Chicago in a week (based upon a weekly statistic)!
AND a knife attack is going to kill or injure one person at a time, not inflict the kind of mass casualties that are possible with an assault rifle.
The Albatross
VIP Member
I guess what bothers me the most is all the hype about one person's crime when we live in a world where mass murders have been commiteed by institutions and governments. Where is the outrage then? I'm much more upset about Fast and Furious, Yemen, what's taking place in Syria, and what has taken place in other nations globally (with legally obtained weaponry I might add) than I am about one mass murder who has been captured and is going to be prosecuted. Governments typically haven't been charged or procecuted for mass murder are they?
Occasional random nut jobs don't scare me nearly as much as when lawfully obtained weapons are trained on their own people by their own governments. Guess that's a secondary point.
Occasional random nut jobs don't scare me nearly as much as when lawfully obtained weapons are trained on their own people by their own governments. Guess that's a secondary point.
- Admin
- #58
anthony
Founder
Please provide source... stating "all countries that have decent gun laws" are trying to loosen such restrictions for people to get guns.
I believe that is total nonsense. There is always a faction in a country who believe gun laws should be relaxed, however; that does not make it a country majority asking for such nonsense.
Imo if taking guns away from innocent people who use them for hunting or in case some drug addict breaks into their house(anyone wanna think about the crimes going on here? with ILLEGAL weapons?), occurs, you just make it easier for the criminals who don't care about the laws anyway LOL to get access to more targets. Obviously that's not the only possible outcome, but it IS one of them...
I find it extremely funny that events with ILLEGAL weapons (you need to have a special license/permit to own/sell auto, and LOL it's not that popular...), seem to ALWAYS spark up people saying to take ALL guns away.
There's a slight fact of life people are missing here... The gun trade is live and large... So is the sex trade... So is just about any black market situation... There is HUGE merit to the argument, "taking away legal guns is NOT going to effect the distribution and use of ILLEGAL weapons."
That being said, I don't know enough about gun laws here to provide an alternative. Although I do believe it is mandatory to register things like pistols and such, if not, it should be mandatory along with a firearm's safety class(for the dipshits). At least for pistols and semi-auto weapons.
Other than that, you really can't stop people from getting their hands on firearms unless you have a massive amount of legit boots on the ground stopping them.
It feels like common sense, but I'm sure someone will oppose it with a story of some kid getting into pa's guns or something... For such arguments, there's not a whole lot you can do about it, if the person doesn't care enough to keep their child out of the gun stash, making it illegal for the rest of us isn't going to stop that asshole's negligence.
As for myself there's only 3 situations I can think of where I'd need a firearm, A) if someone broke into my house, B) hunting, C) because I enjoy going to the firing range and popping off rounds at various amuzing targets like lollipops and picture targets(like the osama dancing one lol). Also enjoy bows, which btw, are pretty deadly too.. So are knives, and well, I don't KNOW the statistics, but I'm willing to bet knives are used in FAR more domestic(aka not amongst gangs, etc, which btw, gangs are a pretty big problem in the U.S.)situations than guns.
And as for knives lethality... just because the people are more interested in not being charged with attempted murder if they get caught, doesn't make the fact that someone just stabbed and violated/robbed you lol. And it's really really really easy to kill someone with a knife when you think about it. Shit even a bat. There's plenty of crimes with bats too. And cars. And fraud. And pipes. And rocks. And rope. Hmmmm. what else lol.
(I'm not saying loosen gun control, I'm just saying taking away the legal guns is NOT going to impact the illegal activity significantly, which I'd bet money that MANY more crimes involving guns are carried out with either stolen or smuggled weapons, not the registered weapon that the person legally bought...)
I find it extremely funny that events with ILLEGAL weapons (you need to have a special license/permit to own/sell auto, and LOL it's not that popular...), seem to ALWAYS spark up people saying to take ALL guns away.
There's a slight fact of life people are missing here... The gun trade is live and large... So is the sex trade... So is just about any black market situation... There is HUGE merit to the argument, "taking away legal guns is NOT going to effect the distribution and use of ILLEGAL weapons."
That being said, I don't know enough about gun laws here to provide an alternative. Although I do believe it is mandatory to register things like pistols and such, if not, it should be mandatory along with a firearm's safety class(for the dipshits). At least for pistols and semi-auto weapons.
Other than that, you really can't stop people from getting their hands on firearms unless you have a massive amount of legit boots on the ground stopping them.
It feels like common sense, but I'm sure someone will oppose it with a story of some kid getting into pa's guns or something... For such arguments, there's not a whole lot you can do about it, if the person doesn't care enough to keep their child out of the gun stash, making it illegal for the rest of us isn't going to stop that asshole's negligence.
As for myself there's only 3 situations I can think of where I'd need a firearm, A) if someone broke into my house, B) hunting, C) because I enjoy going to the firing range and popping off rounds at various amuzing targets like lollipops and picture targets(like the osama dancing one lol). Also enjoy bows, which btw, are pretty deadly too.. So are knives, and well, I don't KNOW the statistics, but I'm willing to bet knives are used in FAR more domestic(aka not amongst gangs, etc, which btw, gangs are a pretty big problem in the U.S.)situations than guns.
And as for knives lethality... just because the people are more interested in not being charged with attempted murder if they get caught, doesn't make the fact that someone just stabbed and violated/robbed you lol. And it's really really really easy to kill someone with a knife when you think about it. Shit even a bat. There's plenty of crimes with bats too. And cars. And fraud. And pipes. And rocks. And rope. Hmmmm. what else lol.
(I'm not saying loosen gun control, I'm just saying taking away the legal guns is NOT going to impact the illegal activity significantly, which I'd bet money that MANY more crimes involving guns are carried out with either stolen or smuggled weapons, not the registered weapon that the person legally bought...)
intothelight
Sponsor
It is really hard to know where to draw the line in a culture where guns have always been owned. The ban on selling assault rifles ended in 2004, and that amazed me when I looked at it. Still have no idea why any person would need an assault rifle and I am pretty much pro responsible gun ownership.
Looking at some of the data, which is difficult as the media in this country is either very pro left or pro right, but I have a feeling the majority of us that fall in the middle, don't object to reasonable laws. But I still don't think we have a gun problem as much as we have a crime problem. Still think a lot of this is moral decay.
Looking at some of the data, which is difficult as the media in this country is either very pro left or pro right, but I have a feeling the majority of us that fall in the middle, don't object to reasonable laws. But I still don't think we have a gun problem as much as we have a crime problem. Still think a lot of this is moral decay.
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