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Discussion Of Ptsd Diagnosis Discussion

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I worry a little that they might take the DSM and use it as a one size fits all guide to treatment,
This has been my experience with doctors and the DSM. Thus, nobody acknowledging my catatonia because it ran under schizophrenia in the DSM IV, which nobody could prove that I had. I think it was around that time that they tried to get me onto anti-psychotics, which my T-doc warned me not to do ..... as it would make me 'crazy'. Anti psychotics may be fine for those who have psychotic symptoms but not for those that don't.

My point being, because I didn't fit nicely into the criteria and was pestering like crazy to find help, did they attempt to get me to fit the criteria for psychotic so I worked better for their guidelines? Rebel statement, I know, but worth thinking about perhaps. What do they do with those of us who don't 'fit'. Is there some requirement to make us fit a label?

I mean, I reacted badly to SSRI;s when I took them (I didn't know better at the time). The next psychiatrist, in hearing that I reacted that way diagnosed me as Bi-polar! I challenged her to show me in the DSM (IV at the time) how I showed ANY of those symptoms. She said, and I quote 'Those with PTSD who react the way you did to SSRI's are standardly given a Bi-Polar diagnosis and drugs for Bi-Polar are anti psychotics as they seem to help better'.

Ummmmm, if I don't fit the Bi-Polar criteria.... and you are trying to diagnose me as such, why do we have the DSM?

////Off rant.
 
COULD "bullying" be enough to flip the switch for some people? How do we know? People's individual personalities are so different. Their sensitivities, etc are so different, I wonder how accurate "criteria A" is. I'm not saying it's not. Not arguing any particular point at all, other than to say I wonder how accurate it really is and how do we know? Especially "how do we know?"
We don't. No-one does. It's a hard fact to say, but it's a fact: there is no objective metric for measuring the damaging effect of fear, stress, or emotional disturbance.

There is lots of good research, and promising theories, and things that just sound like they make sense - especially to people with PTSD. That last bit is the trap, because we who have the disorder can think we understand it better than a scientist looking at mice. In some ways, we do - but in the objective measure of it, we don't.

I also think it's always good to remember that we on the forum don't necessarily represent a cross-section of the PTSD population. I suspect we represent a portion of it, the portion that tilts towards cases that are more complicated.

Once you get into multiple traumas, you're into an area that the objective research hasn't even touched, as far as I can see. How does trauma affect the traumatized brain? Is it a pile up, or is it irrelevant? For some people, it seems, the answers are different - but that's just speaking anecdotally - there's no objective data.

I keep using the word 'objective' only because it's very significant. So long as a disorder is in the realm of patient-reporting, it places more burden on health care practitioner interpreting, and it gets more prone to error. Any attempt to narrow or focus diagnostic criteria is valuable, because it will ultimately help the doctor-patient collaboration eliminate things that don't apply.

Judith Herman proposed sort of replacing BPD with CPTSD. In some cases, that probably makes sense. But there are a whole lot of people with childhood trauma that exhibit different symptoms and would be better served by DTD.
I agree with the DTD approach, and disagree strongly with replacing BPD.

If we think PTSD is hard to diagnose, in all it's forms - I will say, personality disorders are as hard, or harder. Way over-diagnosed, in my opinion. It's not very common to be at a pathological level of the behaviors that warrant a personality disorder diagnosis. I have a number of experiences with people with BPD, and it is easy to see, once you know how to see it. But each of the criteria operate on a spectrum - and it's the judgement of the clinician, to see how many criteria are manifesting strongly enough to warrant the diagnosis. Yes, it's a disorder that comes from experiencing something like compound trauma - but it has a treatment protocol that has good data backing it up (DBT), and is separate enough from even CPTSD, that they should be kept apart, in my opinion.

The layman's way to understand grouping these things is, if one diagnosis can be seen to cause a different symptom grouping, and each one can be treated separately - sequentially or concurrently - then you have two different diagnoses at play. I probably wouldn't have a problem with blood clots if I hadn't broken my knee. Forming clots post-surgery is a known phenomenon, because of the conditions caused by recuperation. They have overlapping treatments. But one doesn't necessarily lead to the other.

This is just infinitely more challenging with mental health, because we can't take an x-ray.
 
There is lots of good research, and promising theories, and things that just sound like they make sense - especially to people with PTSD. That last bit is the trap, because we who have the disorder can think we understand it better than a scientist looking at mice. In some ways, we do - but in the objective measure of it, we don't
There is also a bit of a paradox here (think that's the right word) that people with PTSD are presumably basing their having PTSD on a current set of diagnostic criteria from somewhere. I've been trying to follow the various threads relating to this and trying to work out how to explain this and not sure if I can, but if we're saying it's those with PTSD who should be defining what PTSD is, how do you define who those with PTSD are in the first place?

Apologies. This probably isn't going to further the discussion anywhere productive. It's just niggling me!
 
We don't. No-one does. It's a hard fact to say, but it's a fact: there is no objective metric for measuring the damaging effect of fear, stress, or emotional disturbance.
Thank you! I'm really glad to have someone flat out say that. I'm not an expert in human behavior. I have worked with a lot of horses who were messed up and maybe had the equine version of PTSD, if that's possible. With them, I can feel totally confident that there are so many individual differences that all I'm sure of is there are some things that never cause problems and some things that are so out there cruel they pretty much always cause problems and everything in the middle just "depends". I've just taken it for granted that people would be the same way and haven't quite been comfortable with "Criteria A" being as specific as it is.
 
Apologies. This probably isn't going to further the discussion anywhere productive. It's just niggling me!
No need to apologize, I think that's very true. And it's why we need "experts". A lot of this stuff, at least in my own experience, I don't even realize it's at all off until something, somehow intrudes into my version of reality and makes me rethink things. (These days, that's most often my T, saying something like "Scout, you might want to find a better way of looking at that." Although most recently I'd remarked that life is like skating on thin ice and he came up with an imaginary submarine waiting to come to the rescue if the ice breaks....... :rolleyes:)
 
because we who have the disorder can think we understand it better than a scientist looking at mice. In some ways, we do - but in the objective measure of it, we don't.
I think I understand MY PTSD (pardon the pun), as time went on, better than the doctors who strictly followed the criteria they were looking for. I didn't sit 'right here' along the spectrum. I had the black and white thinking of BPD but not the self harm, explosive anger, etc. The black and white thinking still needed to be addressed and I still fall into it.... it was the catatonia that made treating me impossible for most.

The best and the worst thing I was labeled with was DDNOS (previous iteration of the DSM?) It allowed me to understand that I was on the spectrum, but not solidly textbook on the spectrum and that that was possible. And again, it was my T-doc (3 years into PTSD and multiple psychiatrists later) who made me aware of the term and applied it to me. My life made much more sense then..... and sense matters to someone trying to dig themselves out of this.
 
My therapist has a great flip chart with data about PTSD and one of the charts says trauma at the bottom of the chart and then has lines spreading out like a fan to words such as BPD, depression, anxiety, learning disorders, hyper vigilance, substance abuse, etc. sometimes during session I just stare at it and am in awe that I function at all.
 
Can I just posit something unrelated to Criteria A? Just don't reply if it's out of bounds.

What do you think would be more helpful to people with PTSD: reinventing Criteria A or increasing access to quality care and therapist training in trauma specific interventions?

What if we had a certain amount of money to improve the lives of sufferers? How would that money be best spent?
 
There is also a bit of a paradox here (think that's the right word) that people with PTSD are presumably basing their having PTSD on a current set of diagnostic criteria from somewhere.
Yeah, that's the chicken and egg problem with anything that is moving in real-time. You have to decide to put a 'start here' pin in somewhere along on the continuum of what has come before.

From The Harmony of Illusions: inventing Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, by Allan Young, 1995
The disorder is not timeless, nor does it possess an intrinsic unity. Rather, it is glued together by the practices, technologies, and narratives with which it is diagnosed, studied, treated, and represented and by the various interests, institutions, and moral arguments that mobilised these efforts and resources.

From PTSD in DSM-III: A Case in the Politics of Diagnosis and Disease, by Wilbur J. Scott, 1990 (my bolding for emphasis)
In the story of PTSD, we see again how the orderliness of the natural world is to be found in the very accounts of its orderliness. Theories represent competing sets of assumptions that are inseparable from the interpretation of the evidence taken to support them and their predictions. Hence scientists and those who adopt its discourse evaluate evidence and make claims about what they have discovered. The goal is to move disputed claims along a path towards acceptance as taken-for-granted fact. This calls for appropriate documentation, the ability to command the attention and respect of critical persons and groups, and the skills and resources necessary to marshal this effort. This is how facts are made.

None of this means it's wrong, or that PTSD isn't real. But it came around backwards, like everything in the DSM. There was a phenomenon, and then there were early mental health practitioners trying to codify it and turn it into something real. Eventually, technology catches up, and people start to actually prove what they've already established as 'fact'. It's important to remember that PTSD, as a disorder, was not 'created' until 1980 and the DSM-III. There was something called 'gross stress reaction' in the DSM-I, and a commonly tossed around phrase, 'war neuroses' and 'shell-shock'. But none of this was in DSM-II; it had been dropped. I can't quite understand the timeline for PTSD in the ICD-9, except that things were refined in the 9CM, and relatively concurrently with the appearance of the disorder in the DSM III.

It's important to understand context, always.
 
What if we had a certain amount of money to improve the lives of sufferers? How would that money be best spent?
I vote research. Until PTSD is understood on a neurological level, everyone is flying blind. I hate to say we should all just 'suffer along', and wait, but a major, concerted, global effort to take neurological studies to the next level would provide the most benefit. Even the steps along the way would help people suffering now.
 
What do you think would be more helpful to people with PTSD: reinventing Criteria A or increasing access to quality care and therapist training in trauma specific interventions?
My heart says "increasing access". I'm a huge fan of research. I don't know?

"therapist training in trauma specific interventions" That part there.... Sometimes I wonder how much of this can be taught. Don't get me wrong, there's a need for teaching and learning. I've had this discussion relating to horses too. A friend used to say, "Either you've got it or you don't" I'd tell him he was nuts, "It ain't rocket science, anyone who really wants to can learn this stuff." I don't think that anymore. I've seen too many smart people try and, to my utter amazement, fail. A couple weeks ago, my T & I were talking about suicide. He mentioned that he has, on occasion, told someone, "Well, maybe that's what you ought to do then." I said, "Ouch!" He laughed. He said he wouldn't say that to EVERYONE, and he'd never suggest to a student that they say it to a client. But he said, sometimes, that's just what it takes to shock the person into a different perspective. I was still busy being stunned and imagining how I'd react to that, and how the person we were talking about might have reacted to it... He smiled and said "Either you've got it or you don't. They can't teach some of this stuff, you just have to develop a feel for the right thing to do at the right time." Yikes! But, I wonder how many people actually have gift it takes to be good at what these people do? And I'm guessing it's slightly different gifts that reach different people. (And if that's not "off topic" what is? LOL) And, some people, like him, seem to have the gift that lets him make a difference now, without the benefit of more research. Although he's also always quoting the latest research article he's read too.
 
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