Do You Think That Suicidal Ideation Is Experienced As Trauma By The Core Self?

[Mystery]

I forgot to mention that I read the link that you posted, it makes a lot of sense and definitely struck a few chords with me and I imagine it would with a lot of people. It's a hard one that one ie seeing the suffering as a blessing, I used to say that until I realized that I'm trapped in a nervous system with an impaired stress response syndrome thing! I used to say that it had made me a stronger and better person and it truly had.

Even though I knew I had sustained some damage I had no idea how much until I was again, just like you describe in another dire situation and then off we go, we have a disorder now, back comes the wish to escape again after so years of relative stability. I guess it is all about my attachment stuff, it's been a relationship with someone impoverished in empathy that has brought this on. Ultimately we create these relationships though or don't leave when we should have earlier, for all sorts of reasons related to our poor coping mechanisms.

I try really hard too to keep things positive. maybe we just get older and the system is getting more fragile or the more time goes on the less resilient we are to new difficulties. We need other people, we are social beings, pts is the ultimate cruel joke nature can play when it is created in attachment relationships, we are damned both ways. No wonder you broke down Junebug, working and caring 24/7 is just not humanly possible for too long. Bear Hug for that one (((())))

 

[NovemberStar]

Makes sense to me. One of the big traumas I have been experiment flashbacks from for the last year, is one I. Which my 9 or 10 year old self was so traumatised she was suicdial. Basically, at the time I saw no other escape but to 'die'. I hid in my bedroom cupboard and saw absolutely NO ESCAPE from the hell I was living with, that I wished myself dead. I closed my eyes and tried to 'fly away to heaven'. I was not savvy enough to know how to 'die' any other way. This was long before the internet or long before I had even heard if the concept of suicide. If I had at that time, I have little doubt I'd have done anything I could to escape my terror.

I've worked with some Ts who believe suicidal ideation is exactly that - creating an ESCAPE. Fantasising about death - taking your life - gives you a sense of control in an otherwise powerless position. I also think that explanation fits.

I had one consultant psychiatrist tell me once it was 'impossible' that aged 9 or 10 I could have been suicidal and tried to take my life (I also remember 'trying to die' by putting my head under the water in the bath and not coming back up again - I thought it was possible to stay under the water until I died just by wanting too). He thinks I imagined it. :mad: Yeah right. I very much remember thank you very much and I know I really did want to die, such was my desperate need to ESCAPE.

 

[Hashi]

Ideation is a fantasy. I don't believe it can be traumatic. An attempt is reality, and I do believe that and the results can be traumatic.

I don't believe that the brain responds with fight or flight to a fantasy - fight or flight originates in the reptilian brain, which responds only to present danger.

Could you say what you think "core self" is? To me, the core self is not the reptilian brain.

I'm not sure why you might see ideation itself as traumatic - could you explain more?

 

[franciemarnie]

My understanding is that the limbic system cannot understand thought and language, which is why we can't just "calm down" when triggered with self-talk. But the survival brain does understand the "language" of the senses. So if you see a beautiful landscape or a little kitten or smell something wonderful, your body responds in a positive way.

If you see a violent movie and you are not in "shut-down", you might get triggered. Even non-PTSD people's blood pressure would rise watching parts of Breaking Bad.

So I wonder when we visually imagine suicide, "daydream" about it, what does our primitive brain assess is happening?

In my SI days, it seemed to calm me down short term, but my image was taking enough pills to never wake up and it was peaceful. I'd have beautiful music playing, etc. Maybe my survival brain didn't understand it was suicide I was imagining. It thought I was dreaming of naps.

Hmmm...

I saw this PBS special about plants. If they are damaged by pesticides or whatever and their system can no longer tell when there is danger (when they get the message that destructive bugs are on them, they shoot out chemicals to attract the birds or bugs who will eat the predators! Smart plants.), when they can no longer "feel" themselves, they send out their "emergency" chemical scents forever.

If we are thoroughly numb or dissociated or maybe depressed, maybe it is possible our primitive brains can't tell if we are considering suicide if when you do so, it doesn't do that sort of send off of emergency flares that begins fight or flight.

 

[user27357]

If you distinguish between waking ideation and nightmares that involve suicide scenarios, yes I think some forms of ideation can leave a mark. My nightmares leave me in a state of fight or flight level aggravated mental state and it takes a while for the very real adrenaline to wear off and allow me to function normally, just like a real threat to my survival would.

But, what difference does it make? Saying the injury to the core self matters when there is already enough injury to cause the suicidal ideation- nocturnal or daylight waking hour ideation- in the first place is kind of like worrying about the pain of the bee sting that caused you to fall 20 feet off the fruit tree picker ladder, it is just a small part of a really big hurt. It still sucks, but I have bigger things to worry about at this time.

 

[Chava]

I'm leaning towards the flight idea. I've experienced near-death in an uncontrollable, helpless way, suicide thoughts, and attemtps. Even in the attempts I had a sense of control....everything felt out of control but this decision (sad to say), and lie Hashi said, the effects might have been traumatic even if I called the ambulence myself a couple times. It's a good question because of the threat to life, but for me there is a big difference between having my life uncontrollably ripped away from me (ignites fight/flight) and taking it myself, which was actually a calming response until it started getting ugly and painful and I was still alive. I don't think I was traumatized by thinking about it because that was more like fantasy (though my attempts were all very impulsive and obviosusly responding to trigger overload....so a flight makes sense).

 

[Tinyflame]

Thanks @Mystery , think I it was the situation & other details that set me off, rather than the care giving so much, abuse, uncertainty & the other, & the insomnia really made things worse.

Oh I agree- saying it's a blessing is enough to get one 'voted off the island' , even on here, lol. More so I think it is just 'life', so many have such sufferings. But if the literature is correct that one has to feel 'safe' enough to fall apart, it is a blessing to fall apart within some safety. So more a blessing (I hope) if one has to go 'through' it. I never felt stronger or anything positive for it, in fact there is some article here that says the cumulative losses & sorrows actually do contribute to less ability to cope. But what comes to my mind I think is, 'now what?' And like any story, where it will go from here I don't know.

I think @franciemarnie is very correct as regards communicating to the brain/limbic system through the senses.

I must say though my thoughts of SI were never within a peaceful or soft-music-in-the-background-playing scenario for myself..

 

[anthony]

I had this thought today. That suicidal ideation is a life threatening event to the self.

Yes, and no, IMHO. Yes, ideation is absolutely a form of retraumatisation. I don't really see fight or flight being part of most ideation though, in the sense of thought, preoccupation, planning and such, as fight or flight is a physiological response, not a response adaptive of thought. Saying that... ideation does extend into unsuccessful attempts designed not to die, where fight or flight would be applicable, a scream for help via intentional failed acts, and I think in those aspects of ideation... I would jump on the yes side of self life threatening trauma.

So I don't believe you could state "suicidal ideation" as a whole in relation to self life threatening events, as the cognitive aspects of ideation are not life threatening, but the physiological responses could absolutely be classified as such.

 

[Mystery]

Thankyou to everyone who has given their thoughts and opinion on my question. That's given me some good points to think about. I was more specifically asking that question as someone whose nervous system is already impaired with ptsd, not so much as could someone develop ptsd from suicidal ideation. Just wondering if my own fleeting moments of ideation, were the cause of my current glitch and heart palpitations. One thing I do know is that 'Denial is not a river in Egypt', I'm probably scraping the barrel for excuses for my current state rather than looking at it more intelligently.