Does Altruism Exist

[mamachick]

In another thread on relationships, a discussion about whether altruism even exists was being debated. I find this topic very interesting. I use to be more of an idealist, and wanted to believe it did exist. Then I had to write a paper for a philosophy class and had to defend either side. I pondered on this a long time and concluded that there is no such thing as altruism.

It almost felt like a relief for me to discover this. For some, it may sound cold and insensative, but I find it realistic. The exchange of kindness is for our own benefit in some way. I am just wondering what others think about this and how it effects your beliefs in general.

 

[SpeedOfLife]

I think so, but that's by my definition of altruism. What's your definition of altruism?

 

[Deleted member 12723]

Hi,
I had to look up the word altruist in the dictionary. It is the unselfish concern for the welfare of others.
I believe it does exist, because I am a altruist.

The drawback to this is when I was so naive and gullible and vulnerable and the perfect victim. Nothing like caring for a a whole group of abusers as they appeared in my life; the life scars are permanent.

Today I am more choosy about who I have concern for. I have been branded and burned beyond belief during the course of my life. I am 58 now. I am not naive, gullible, nor vulnerable with just anyone. I make sure the people around me are safe. That they have a good sense of boundries and respect.

I am not conned like I was. I made a lifetime of bad choices caring for the most despicable people. I had alot of shame about this condition of mine. But I realized that they were my abusers and I do not have anything to be ashamed about. It is not my idea or choice that I was abused, taken advantage of and exploited and betrayed.

Guess I will get off of my soapbox. We are not responsible for being "suckerized".

I hope this helped and did not hurt. Take care.

 

[mamachick]

gizmo-so are people really altruistic? I use to say yes-until I really pondered over it. Theres no right answer. I just could not find an example of an act of kindness where the giver did not get something out of it. Even if we donate money annonymously, we can feel good about it.

You describe perfectly people who are takers and will abuse without a thought. I am glad you are now around safe people and now, there is no shame for what you have experienced.

 

[Ted Moen]

A friend of mine dove on a grenade when he realized several of us were caught in the open by a well designed booby trap. I consider that an altruistic act, so yes, I think altruism exists.

Ted

 

[Deleted member 12723]

Hi Brat-

I do not think it is wrong to get good feelings from doing something for somebody else. We need to have good self esteem. I think it is wrong to give to get. But I am guilty of having done that at times. Having hidden agenda is not a good thing to make a life practice out of. Then it becomes addictive and all sorts of bad things come out of having hidden agendas. Like dishonesty with self and others.

But I like to give. I can give without expecting to get anything out of it. I like to think of it as making a good memory. I am so loaded down with bad memories, I can use good memories. I could use alot of good and positive experiences. I still have had more bad than good.

I am a caring person. I am sensitive. I am concerned about the welfare of those I care about. I'm not talking about a life of good deeds only. I still am capable of bad things and bad choices. I like to make amends because it gives me a clean conscience. I do not like to hurt people. Buy sometimes I had to be rude and abrupt with certain individuals.

I am human. I think the reason I attracted abusers was because I was such a caring person. What a waste and how much tradegy I went through as a result.

My definition of a altruist is a imperfect human who truly does care about the well being of other people.It isbeing filled with compassion. It is being kind and thoughtful. It is thinking of things to do that make a good difference in the lives of others.

I'm a wife, a mother, a grandmother and a sister. I have had to cut my family of origin out of my life, and I only have phone contact with a sister because she is so unhealthy and toxic. I have a really bad temper and had to go to anger management classes, and it helped me.

My family of origin were rageaholics and it was modeled to me. So I have had to learn so many things, like letting things go after a certain point. I do not know if this is off topic or not. Bit I am far from perfect.

I think I can see it from your point of view. Are you thinking of autopia? A civiliation of altruists? I don't believe that is possible in this world. So mabe I will redefine me and call myself a human with altuistic tendendacies. I hope this makes sense and helps.

 

[SpeedOfLife]

Here's what altruism isn't. It isn't self-negation. You don't have to deny your own worth to feel the worth of others and act on that feeling. That's my definition of altruism - a recognition of worth beyond your own personal self interest strong enough to make you act to preserve or build on that worth.

 

[freakofnurture]

I think altruism (which I understand is defined as "Action for the benefit of others without any involvement of the own emotional self.") is an ideal that humans cannot ever actualise because we aren't able to act in a coherent, functional manner without motivation (motivation means that we do x because we want y).

There are a million of more or less socially acceptable, altruistic surface motives that can cause a person to act in a way that apparently benefits someone else while leaving the 'altruist' themselves without any compensation; underneath those non-selfish motives, though, there is always the 'altruist' getting something out of it. Be it a good feeling, satisfaction, or the mere ability to look into the mirror tomorrow without puking.

I do not think it is wrong to get good feelings from doing something for somebody else.

I agree. And a human who feels happy for being able to help someone is the most altruistic our species can get. It is desirable for people to be able to feel this way; it is healthy for the beneficiary, the benefactor and society as a whole.

I think it is wrong to give to get. (...) Having hidden agenda is not a good thing to make a life practice out of.

But that's still the only way humans can function, and we can't help but have our own agenda in the back of our heads. Wanting to get something out of what we do and having self-interest somewhere in the back of our minds or emotions is just how humans work; it's the only way we can work.

I'd mostly agree with you though, concerning explicitly designed exchange relationships where the other party isn't giving informed consent and an explicit hidden agenda that is different from the baseline human state of having self-interest.

But I like to give. I can give without expecting to get anything out of it.

There you have it. You like doing it. Which means you get the joy of doing something you like out of it, making you a selfish joy junkie, albeit a helpful one.

It's funny how to value 'altruism' one needs to go to the so despised 'ends justify means' kind of morality. It's also funny how the human condition can clash with what being human (i.e. gifted with imagination) allows us to dream up about ourselves,

A friend of mine dove on a grenade when he realized several of us were caught in the open by a well designed booby trap.

I think it would be unfair to speculate about a situation this close to you emotionally, so I'll talk about the general phenomenon of someone giving up their life to protect the lives of others.

On first glance it looks like it couldn't be anything but pure altruism, I agree. But on second glance there are the following two statements to consider:

1. 'I feel that it's my duty to protect others and I need to do my duty in order to feel good about myself.'
2. 'I couldn't have looked at myself in the mirror after not having helped these people; I needed to do it, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to think of myself as a person worthy of breathing ever again.'

In order to be able to risk your life for somebody else you need a very strong conviction and a very strong desire to follow this conviction. I propose: The more crass an act of 'altruism' is, the more powerful is the actual 'selfish'* motivation behind it.

Of course a motivation for self-sacrifice often rates high on measures of morality and it is often based on a self-image that is pro-social and striving for altruism. However, it is still 'selfish', just because it's a motivation, and it's extremely 'selfish' because it prompts a person to go to extreme lengths just to fulfill it.

It's like all things in life. (The following examples aren't intended to match the crassness of total self-sacrifice) In order to give up most of your social life for the sake of studying you really need to want to be a doctor/lawyer/rocket scientist badly. In order to stick to a cruel diet you really need to want to lose those love handles badly. In order to be self-critical and work on your own issues, too, you really need to want this relationship to work out badly.

______________________
* I put 'selfish' in quotes, just like 'altruism' because emotional self-preservation isn't selfish in the way that the word is mostly used. It's not morally reprehensible to work for your own emotional self-preservation; it's your right as a human being, and a sheer necessity.


EDIT: Lol. I spent so much brain juice on writing this that I am too dry to get what I mean now. Let's just hope I didn't just hack into the keyboard while singing 'Oh my darling Clementine'.

 

[mamachick]

freakofnurture-your post was magnificent. I wish I could have wrote that. Wow. That took some brain juice.

Most if not all religions promote altruism as a very important moral value. Its a great thing to strive for, to work toward, and those who are doing that are likely very moral, but is unachievable in my belief.

We have all heard friends say something like-my husband doesnt do this or that, then will justify it with things they do for the husband. A perfect example of the exchange between two people without any verbal agreement or contract.

As fon stated in last post about sacrificing ones own life-I would throw myself in front of the bus to save one of my children-is that selfless? It is not, it is selfish, as I would go to such length to assure that my child live-it is my want, my desire, and I would not be considering any other human beings desire in that split second.

Altruism can be distinguished from duty or loyalty. I have a duty to protect my children before myself no matter what-(that is my self imposed moral judgement) that may be moral as I can get, but not altruistic.

gizmo I dont think it is bad to feel good about doing for others. And yes, doing for others does increase our self esteem. Healthy self esteem comes from many things, but among them are:

1.)feeling of being loved and valued-
2.)security-feeling assured, being able to depend on individuals and situations.
3.) a sense of belonging -affiliation, acceptance, approval
4.) success -competence-mastery-accomplishments
5.)responsibility (includes social/moral)
6.)mission/purpose-empowerment through setting realistic and achievable goals

Most things that we do for others without expecting anything in return will have some benefit to our self worth even though we may not be conscious of it or think that we are doing it for this reason-but it does make us feel good about ourselves.

There is nothing wrong with making a good memory-I do too. I love doing for others. I just had this get together at my house for Easter and I did this great crab pot for a bunch of family. Everyone kept telling me to come sit and eat but I love making them happy and finishing the work and bringing more steam crab. It makes me happy. If they didnt love it-I also would not likely get the same pleasure.

 

[goingonhope]

My understanding of altruism is the love of another at the exclusion to love of oneself. Perhaps challenging to imagine or to understand through a psychological point of view.

Perhaps even near impossible to give credit and validity to, without first being witness to any such experience or of being on either the receiving end of such, or the altruistic giving side of such, ....yet from my experience of life yes absolutely I trust altruism is very much real, and probably still alive.

Ask me when I'm suffering memory lapses and too entirely disheartened and depressed and I'll probably deny such, however tonight I remember that yes altruism was and is still very real.

I'm not talking about codependency or low self-esteem or something that can even be scientifically explained or put to words in theory, I'm sharing of something very possible, real, steady and quite wonderful.

Altruism if not best defined as I shared above, well then simply defined as truly self-less acts (loving choices made with no prior thought to or benefits of any value to oneself).

Naturally being truly altruistic will return a benefit somehow (even if it's from within a spiritual realm), and will increase benefits for the someone on the receiving end or perhaps others later in which one may never meet, however this doesn't make true altruism any less so, due to it being most natural, made without calculated thought or any thought at all, and or selected as a choice even when the price to oneself may be quite burdensome or heavy to carry.

So I say yes, altruism exists.

 

[mamachick]

If it returns any benefit, then it does not meet the definition of altruism

 

[goingonhope]

Spiritual benefit.

You never know anything whatsoever will ever be returned beforehand. The choice is without thought, knowledge, ego or reason. It's blind.

Then some well intentioned person may come along afterwards, foolishly feed ego and inform you sometime afterwards that your altruism has had spiritual benefits. And, if you're lucky you forget anything and everything they said and continue on.