Does "validation" actually help you?

[Rani G2]

I can't seem to separate myself from her emotions. I try, and I coach myself through it, and my Ts have all reinforced this approach as well. But it isn't working. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

This is logical as humans we internalize mother/father images to build up our selfidentity. To detangle them is to understand that there are different parts in our psyche. Identifying them and being able to find distance to them might be helpful.

 

[Rani G2]

What is it about validation that helps you? How do you cooperate with that process so that you feel better from it and grow closer to your T through it?

A process to understand my own way of survival. The very need to survive is very logical to me.

 

[DogwoodTree]

What role do I want my mum to have in my life? What are some ways I could make that work?

I think this is one place where I tend to get hung up. I've offered variations on our relationship where I could feel safer, but she doesn't want anything other than all-or-nothing. If it's not the fullest enmeshment that she desires, then from her perspective, the relationship doesn't even exist. That's why she keeps threatening to fire me even though I'm very good at my job and keep a good attitude and work hard and am fully committed to doing what's right. If she doesn't feel emotionally fed through it all...if I'm not "fun" enough (her word)...if she doesn't feel a sense of collaboration that is emotionally satisfying to her...then somehow I'm betraying her and she doesn't want me around. There doesn't seem to be any possibility for anything in between with her. She literally gave me a document this past week that outlines two possibilities for where we go next. Option 1, without going into too much detail, gives her control of everything. Option 2 has us going our separate ways with no more work relationship.

look at this stuff as "experimentation". Starting with people who are relatively safe. Where it really doesn't matter much if they hate me.

I've tried this with two different church groups over the past few years. With the first one, I kept reaching out and kept trying to make it work and kept overlooking indications that I thought were saying they didn't particularly want a close relationship with me. Eventually my T started questioning if that was really the right church for me (especially since it was such an emotion-based approach to spirituality and very similar to what I was raised in with my mom), and I decided he was right, that I should try another group. So we switched churches, and I tried for another year with the new group. I tried a couple of weekly small groups, I got into deeper conversations with two different women in the church, and I volunteered on Sundays. It got to where it was so stressful and destabilizing to be around those people that I eventually quit going. Nothing they were doing wrong, I just couldn't get comfortable. I've stayed in touch with the two women, but contact has waned. When we do talk, I feel like I'm either draining them or I have to put on the mask and pretend to be okay. I'm scared to try again with another group or other people. I don't want to keep spreading this darkness inside me. I don't want to impose. I don't want to be the crazy person that everyone has to work at tolerating my idiosyncrasies. It's never a true peer relationship, evenly give and take.

Validation from a variety of people can help me to gage my own responses to know whether or not I am on track

So do you get consistent feedback from other people? When I try to gauge my perceptions by their responses, it feels like I have to keep flip-flopping in order to stay in sync with their feedback. Their feedback isn't predictable. I'll think I've figured out the pattern of what they notice and how they perceive things, and I try to track with that, but then the next conversation they'll respond completely opposite how I expected. That happened with my T a few weeks ago. I thought I knew what he would think about something my mom had said to me in an email. I thought my response to her was well-founded and made perfect sense. Then when I actually got his feedback, he thought she sounded genuine and reasonable and I sounded defensive. I didn't agree, but in my next email to my mom, I apologized for being defensive and said I would work on that. I heavily edited that email to make sure it was very neutral, making a few important points but otherwise being open and submissive and inviting openness from her as well. Her response was to say she was so thankful that I was making all these changes, and the points I had made were just where I'm confused and hopefully I could see that now. Basically, she just threw it all back in my face and took responsibility for absolutely nothing, even a bold-faced lie where she had made two completely contradictory statements a few weeks apart, but somehow I'm "confused" because I couldn't see how both statements could be true.

If others concur with these words and resonate with their meaning, we are no longer alone

I realize that's what is supposed to happen, but it's not what I experience. I always thought people were pretending to have that experience, so I tried to pretend as well, to help the other person feel good about the "support" they were offering. That's why I asked this question. It sounds like most other people really do feel supported and bonded when validated by friends or therapists or whomever. But I don't, and I can't figure out why.

The truth is, there are people out in the world who will like you for you.

This is difficult to believe. Did you know there's actually a name for the suffering people experience from being in close relationship with someone on the spectrum? Cassandra phenomenon. It actually has many characteristics similar to PTSD, except that the source of the trauma is ongoing. I'm working extremely hard to try to minimize the possibility of this happening to the people in relationship with me. It takes constant vigilance, and I can never do enough. It's never enough. But it's not for lack of effort on my part. And yet still, I feel so guilty for the pain they experience because of me. There is no being "myself" with people who are close to me because that might be too harmful to them.

 

[Sideways]

. It sounds like most other people really do feel supported and bonded when validated by friends or therapists or whomever.

For what it's worth? My current T and I have a pretty 'unbonded' relationship. I see her in a purely professional capacity, with no real emotional attachment.

That's what works for me, so I'm not trying to make it anything else. I appreciate that she's good at what she does, but my emotional bonding to her is about the same as the bond I have with the guy that does my tax.

I keep it that way because in the past, having an emotionally involved T was disastrous for me. And exhausting.

I don't believe in forcing emotional bonds, because they take emotional energy which is pretty limited with me. I have a few relationships that I invest in, and the emotional bond has slowly developed over time. For me? Being emotionally connected to lots of people simply wouldn't be sustainable. Certainly not where I currently am in my recovery. It's not good or bad, it's just how I am:)

 

[DogwoodTree]

internalize mother/father images to build up our selfidentity. To detangle them is to understand that there are different parts in our psyche. Identifying them and being able to find distance to them might be helpful.

Distance from my parents or from the parts of my psyche?

I'm currently no-contact with my dad. I have the minimum necessary contact with my mom to do my job, since I work for her.

As for my psyche, I've studied and practiced mindfulness for a few years now. It helps me not get swallowed up for quite so long when I fall into that deep despair. But I still get sucked into my mom's perspective whenever I'm around her.

I keep it that way because in the past, having an emotionally involved T was disastrous for me. And exhausting.

That makes sense. I adored my previous T, the one who moved away. But I never felt bonded, or connected, with him. He always felt far away, especially when we were in the same room, and that was very painful.

This T I have now, he's okay. But I don't look forward to seeing him like I did the other one. I've decided that might be a good thing, so my feelings for the T aren't really part of the equation so much.

I have a few relationships that I invest in, and the emotional bond has slowly developed over time. For me? Being emotionally connected to lots of people simply wouldn't be sustainable.

Lots of people relationships wouldn't work for me, either, but it would be nice to have one or two that felt like a true friend. I started thinking I had that with those two women, but then realized it didn't go both ways. I'm an oddity for them, someone they can be around for short bursts here and there, but not someone they want to be more consistently involved with.

 

[scout86]

I've tried this with two
different church groups over the past few years

Although I have spiritual beliefs, and think of myself as a Christian, my experiences with church and church people have been kind of a mixed bag. The last church I went to, I was eventually told that you can't be a Christian if you believe in evolution. I give up! I guess my point is, sometimes finding people you can relate to and who can relate to you really is tough. That doesn't mean it's impossible. It might mean you need to broaden your search.

This is difficult to believe. Did you know there's actually a name for the suffering people experie...

I read that piece on "Cassandra phenomenon". Have you thought that YOU might be dealing with that yourself, because of your ongoing relationship with your mother? I'm not sold on the idea that it's your responsibility to protect people from you. What about the idea of being who you are and letting people make their own choices? I'll admit, I've never had a close relationship with someone on the autism spectrum. The people I know who are have some quirks, but I haven't found them to be that hard to get along with. Certainly not toxic. I'd much rather deal with someone who has Asperger's than with the woman who gave birth to me, I can tell you that with complete confidence.

You know, it may be hard for you to find people who can give you good feedback because there are relatively few people who can relate to what you've been through. I've noticed that very few people can comprehend the relationship I had with my mother. Because their own situations were totally different. The more I've thought about this, I think, for me, it's pretty rare that someone who has no insight into what I'm talking about has ever given me anything that I'd call "validation". (I'm not a huge fan of that whole idea, when it comes right down to it.) I found it helpful, when I finally realized that my mother wasn't actually normal, to have my T say he agreed. In fact, he had stronger opinions on the subject than I did. That was helpful because I respect his opinion, I don't think he's going to tell me something just because he thinks it's what I want to hear, and following that line of reasoning really made a lot of sense of a lot of things. To have someone say something "validating" just to be nice? I appreciate their desire to be nice, but it really doesn't have any impact on me otherwise. Is that what you're talking about?

 

[DogwoodTree]

That doesn't mean it's impossible. It might mean you need to broaden your search.

I tried hiking meetups and an aspie club. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if that's even what I want. I think "friendship" isn't at all what I expected. It doesn't make sense to me anymore.

Have you thought that YOU might be dealing with that yourself, because of your ongoing relationship with your mother?

Yes, I thought about that. That seems accurate. The relationship with her is ongoing, and traumatic. Most people don't have a clue what I'm talking about when I mention the trouble I have with her. So there's a sense of isolation because of not being believed or understood.

But that doesn't mean that I'm not also traumatizing people in relationship with me. It's painful for my DH to not have the kind of intimacy with me that he wants and needs. And it's so frustrating that I can't fix that for him.

I've never had a close relationship with someone on the autism spectrum. The people I know who are have some quirks, but I haven't found them to be that hard to get along with. Certainly not toxic.

I don't think it's "toxicity" with autism so much as "distance." The comfort and intimacy just isn't there, not like with neurotypicals. You wouldn't really notice it if the relationship is more distant anyway, like with an acquaintance. But in a close relationship...husband/wife, mother/daughter, best friends...it's pervasive.

You know, it may be hard for you to find people who can give you good feedback because there are relatively few people who can relate to what you've been through.

This is true.

The more I've thought about this, I think, for me, it's pretty rare that someone who has no insight into what I'm talking about has ever given me anything that I'd call "validation". (I'm not a huge fan of that whole idea, when it comes right down to it.)

To have someone say something "validating" just to be nice? I appreciate their desire to be nice, but it really doesn't have any impact on me otherwise. Is that what you're talking about?

Right. I think this is part of what I'm struggling with. People don't get it, and I realize they can't because they've not experienced my exact experiences. But on that point, no one's internal experience is completely communicable and understandable. So then, how does anyone ever feel validated, if their internal experience can never be completely understood?

to have my T say he agreed. In fact, he had stronger opinions on the subject than I did. That was helpful because I respect his opinion

I guess I don't trust that any of my Ts is really saying what they believe. I'm afraid they're just saying what they think I want to hear, because of their training or expectations or whatever. I don't know what else to say about that--it just feels empty to me. And I don't know what they could possibly say that wouldn't feel empty.

In fact, he had stronger opinions on the subject than I did.

I guess, if someone I respected and trusted and knew they really knew what they were talking about because they knew my mom (and not just my reports on her), if they had a strong opinion about it, that might help. We hired a business coach recently to try to help us work through some of this stuff. I hoped she would see through some of the issues and provide some validation for me. But she didn't. She totally fell in love with my mom, and couldn't stop talking about how much my mom loves me. There's more to that story that really hurts and was very damaging, but I don't want to give too many details. Anyway, the conclusion of the group meeting with her was that I'm "handicapped" (Mom's word), and going through a mid-life crisis (because I happen to be in my 40s), and just now dealing with my trauma that the others have already processed and gotten over. And those are the reasons we're having trouble on our team. And all that gave the others "so much hope" that we could solve these problems and find a way to "make it work." By blaming it all on me. And then working around my handicaps. Every time I think about that conversation, I want to crawl into a hole and die.

 

[scout86]

So then, how does anyone ever feel validated, if their internal experience can never be completely understood?

That's a really good question. (At least I think it is.) I don't think we can ever be sure we 100% accurately know what someone else is experiencing. I think, though, it's possible to come close enough for all practical purposes. It's true, though, we're basically guessing. Your experiences with your mother resonate with me, because they remind my of my own experiences. That doesn't mean I know exactly what you're feeling or thinking, but it does make it easier for me to believe your side of the story, because it matches with my own experiences. Maybe that can be enough?

We hired a business coach recently to try to help us work through some of this stuff.

:arghh;:arghh;:arghh;
I'm still not ready to think the problem is you. Why? Because I've seen this kind of thing happen in my own life. My mother was, and my brother is, way better at being narcissists than I am at being whatever it is I am. They were/are both very persuasive. I'd actually bet that it's more likely someone who deals with your mother all the time is going to get what she's really like. Because they can't keep up that mask of niceness 24/7/365. Or, maybe they don't feel like they have to.

I actually had a funny experience with my mom that WAS validating and totally unexpected. I'd called her, in the nursing home where she was sent to recover from a hip fracture. She was going on about how awful everything was, playing the victim, looking for sympathy. (I know. My attitude sounds awful.) While we were talking, one of the aides came in and asked her about her supper, some of which was untouched. My mom launched into an angry tirade about the quality of the food. The aide apologized and left. My mom went back to whining to me about how weak and pathetic she felt and how powerless she was....... Yeah, right. :rolleyes: There was another time when I'd called to see how she was doing, after a medical setback. (I was talking to the charge nurse because I never got any really accurate information from my mom or brother. Too much drama.) At one point, the charge nurse was commenting on what my mother was like to get along with. She said something like "Your mother can be very.....strong willed? She definitely makes her opinions known." I managed not to laugh and said I knew just what she meant. (Like you said earlier, maybe I didn't, but, close enough.) They got to know the real her because they were around her all the time an felt her wrath.

I guess I don't trust that any of my Ts is really saying what they believe.

That thought crosses my mind a lot too. I've only worked with the one T, but sometimes I wonder........ He tells me, though, that part of how he does his job is by being himself. The more I think about this, the more complicated it seems..... LOL I can tell you, for sure, that this is where my mind tends to go a LOT. There have been times when my T has reacted in ways that were so apparently spontaneous that I'm pretty sure he wasn't making it up for some therapeutic reason. During those "what do I do about THIS?" email exchanges, for example. One of the things he does, that honestly makes me suspicious, is emphasizes things we have in common and he'll use phrases like "people like us". He did it the other day with something where it contradicted things he's said in the past. And, I noticed. Didn't call him on it this time (I have). I've kind of decided to suspend my disbelief. I THINK he's got my best interest at heart and, if he thinks this is helpful, I guess I'll play along for now. But I'm not sure what he's up to.........

I don't know. All that stuff IS complicated.

And all that gave the others "so much hope" that we could solve these problems and find a way to "make it work." By blaming it all on me.

:arghh;:arghh;:arghh;:arghh;
Don't feel you have to answer, but I'm curious about what they see as "your" problems. What ever it is, it's your mother's spin on things, I'm pretty sure. You don't have the same problems with EVERYONE.

One more thought on "dealing with a narcissist". My ex-husband was somewhere on the narcissist/psychopath spectrum. We were married for 12 years before I actually noticed things weren't going well and began to suspect the problem wasn't all me. Before the divorce, we tried couples therapy. He said he didn't want to change. I thought about that a lot. What I realized is OF COURSE he didn't want anything to change. Things were set up exactly the way he wanted them. There was no give and take. Well, I guess there was, but it was 100% I give, 100% he took. Why would he want things to change, it was working for him? The thing is, in a better relationship, he'd have been more concerned about my feelings than he was. In his version of reality, the only feelings that really counted were his. Now, I'd grown up being trained that my feelings didn't count, so it was a perfect combination, until I got tired of it. I'm going to guess that the situation with your mother is a lot like that. If her concern for you was "normal", I think she'd express it differently. To me, it makes perfect sense that she'd blame everything on you. The first rule of her version of reality is probably that SHE can never be wrong.

But that doesn't mean that I'm not also traumatizing people in relationship with me. It's painful for my DH to not have the kind of intimacy with me that he wants and needs. And it's so frustrating that I can't fix that for him.

I just want to throw out the idea that there's a range of experiences. Being "traumatic" is one thing. "Frustrating" is something else. So is "disappointing" and "painful" and "sad" and anything else you can think of. I can see where being in a relationship with someone who has Asperger's could be a challenge. Maybe even traumatic sometimes. But maybe less than traumatic a lot of the time too. There must be reasons he married you to begin with? I'm hoping they were good reasons, like there were things about you he loved and admired and wanted to have in his life. A lack of physical intimacy is a real issue, I get that. I was on the receiving end of that with my ex, but it was a control thing on his part, more than anything else. It was hard. It also contributed to the end of the marriage, but not because it was happening. Because of the way he chose to not deal with it. If he'd acknowledged that I had a point of view that actually mattered, if would have made a huge difference. Anyway, that was a different situation, but I get that it's a real issue. In your case, do you know that "you can't fix it", or would it be more accurate to say you can't fix it yet?

You're in a really difficult situation! You have the right to be who you really are. In fact, it's my personal belief that the world needs us to be who we really are. But, it sounds like many of the people around you want you to be someone else. (It wouldn't surprise me if they all want you to be someone different.) I can relate to that. Personally, I don't see how I could have stayed in my mother's sphere of influence AND been able to be who I really am. Who I am isn't someone who met with her approval. It sounds like your situation is pretty similar, expect it's not easy for you to walk away. I'd be interested to know if your T, or anyone else, sees a solution. I'm sorry your situation is so complicated!

 

[DogwoodTree]

I'd actually bet that it's more likely someone who deals with your mother all the time is going to get what she's really like.

One of my sisters also works for her. But she's the "golden child" and is never held accountable for anything...even her outright rebellion against rules (like leaving town in the middle of heavy deadlines) is blamed on me. So my mom and my sister reinforce the story for each other, that they're perfectly fine and all the problems are my fault. And then, when we talk to someone like the business coach, I'm out-voted.

I THINK he's got my best interest at heart and, if he thinks this is helpful, I guess I'll play along for now.

Or maybe he's got a blind spot there? I don't think Ts are generally as pristinely focused on our well-being as I used to believe. One of my Ts habitually referred to me in the 3rd person when first starting a session..."So how's Jane doing today?" (not my real name, just an example). Then about 2 years into it with him, he one day mentioned that another client had complained that he did that at the beginning of that day's session, and he told me he had no idea why he had said it, but the client was right, and so he apologized. I told him, sure, he'd done that with me often. It didn't bother me, so I hadn't said anything, but it was a common intro to our sessions. The T was completely shocked. He had no idea he did that regularly.

I'm curious about what they see as "your" problems.

They listed the problems during that meeting: 1) I have a hard time communicating verbally and prefer written communication. I was the one who said verbal communication was difficult for me. Then my mom started calling it a handicap. Then the business coach wrote it in big letters in the middle of the board and circled it. 2) The business coach explained that because I'm in my 40s, I'm going through a transitional time in my life of figuring out who I am and what's important to me, and I need space to do that. Basically, although she didn't call it this, I'm having a mid-life crisis. 3) According to the business coach, my mom and sister have successfully dealt with "our past" already, but because I was busy getting married and having kids after all the crap came to light when I left for college, I haven't had time to work through all that yet, and I need space for that.

She also said my mom needed to have a better understanding of the cash flow for the business, and that there were a couple of management-style adjustments she could make that might work better for me. And my sister needed to understand that even though verbal communication is very easy and natural for her, I'm different. In the end, if they could both realize what my weaknesses are, the question is whether they're willing to work around them. And that's where the meeting ended, with my sister saying she felt so much hope now that the problems have been clearly identified.

You don't have the same problems with EVERYONE.

Well, really I do. I can fake it well enough in specific, time-limited situations where I don't feel threatened, like at conferences for work. But extended family, neighbors, church...pretty much any unstructured social gathering feels overwhelming and threatening, especially now as I've gotten less able to maintain that "mask" in unstructured settings. I don't have the energy or confidence for it anymore like I used to.

He said he didn't want to change.

Did he ever see and admit to anywhere that he should change, even though he didn't want to?

My mom thinks she truly has no areas where she needs to change. Over and over, she asks me to explain to her what it is she's doing wrong. I try, but she always denies or rationalizes her way out of it. So then she gets back to her original position of complete innocence. She says she's willing to change if she could see what it is she's doing wrong, and so that's exactly what made her so endearing to the business coach. The lady thought my mom was so open-hearted and wanted so badly to do the right thing. They never got to the point where the coach could see how much denial and spin my mom puts on problems when they're presented to her.

The first rule of her version of reality is probably that SHE can never be wrong.

Yes, this. And also my sister can never be wrong.

Although my mom does insulate herself against accusations of never apologizing for anything by regularly apologizing for the way she allowed the abuse when I was a kid. However, that's always discussed in the context of 1) she was also a victim because of her own childhood abuse, and 2) how important it is that I forgive her for allowing these things in her own ignorance and innocence and victimization and dissociation. And if I have any anger or bitterness about it or lingering issues from the abuse, it's because I've not adequately forgiven her or the abusers.

She'll do the same things for her mistakes from 2, 3, 4 years ago. So long as the mistake is in the distant past, then she can apologize, and I'm supposed to forgive her and pretend it never happened, because obviously she's not like that anymore. And if I bring it up, it's because I'm holding a grudge.

it was a control thing on his part, more than anything else. It was hard. It also contributed to the end of the marriage, but not because it was happening. Because of the way he chose to not deal with it. If he'd acknowledged that I had a point of view that actually mattered, if would have made a huge difference.

I regularly acknowledge his suffering in this, and that I'm terribly sorry he has to experience this distance. I'm not using it to control him at all, and will quickly point out the problem is me, not him. I've also encouraged him to go to therapy regularly so he can get some of the support that he needs.

But I still feel so badly about the pain all of this causes him. Sure, on some level, he has a choice on whether to stay with me or not. But I don't want the decision to stay with me to cause such deep suffering for him.

do you know that "you can't fix it", or would it be more accurate to say you can't fix it yet?

We don't know yet. Asperger's complicates everything. The ways to treat trauma don't work for me because of Asperger's. The ways to treat AS don't work for me because of PTSD. Is the aversion to intimacy caused by sensory issues (which can't be "healed") or by trauma (which might be fixable, to some degree)? All of it is made even worse by severe depression. And what resources I might have used to address these issues (time, money, energy) are sucked up dealing with the crap from my mom.

 

[scout86]

But she's the "golden child"

That was my brother too.

Or maybe he's got a blind spot there? I don't think Ts are generally as pristinely focused on our well-being as I used to believe.

I think they're human, when it comes right down to it. My theory of what he's doing is that I've always felt like an outsider and decided long ago that was ok. I think he thinks it's helpful if I feel like someone (him) is on my side. We do have some things in common, which probably helps. What I caught him on the other day was a little hard to explain. I can't visualize 'pictures' in my head, at least not yet. I can, more of less, visualize sounds and spatial relationships, but not pictures. So, I haven't been able to do some "picture the scene" type stuff that he uses to process trauma with a lot of people. He tells me that he gets what I mean because he had trouble learning to do it himself, but now he can. We were talking about the picturing thing and he used "people like us" when he's previously said he's capable of doing it, now. I THINK what that's about is him, trying to make me feel like a freak, by pointing out ways we're alike. I think he just slipped up. I also think he realized it. There was a fast moving expression that suggested he knew what he'd done, and that's why I let it go. That "how's Jane today?" thing I'd find annoying, but that maybe is just some sort of affectation he's picked up for some reason?

1) I have a hard time communicating verbally and prefer written communication.

Personally, I don't see that as a problem. I see advantages to using written communication. Less room for misunderstandings or inaccurate remembering, you have a record of the communication........ It seems like a good idea to me, especially in a business situation. My T encouraged me to communicate via email as much as possible with my mother. Partly to give me the time and space to think instead of react, partly because he said it encouraged HER to organize her thoughts, instead of just spewing a bunch of emotions at me and expecting me to sort it out and "fix" what ever the problem seemed to be. She didn't like it, but it helped.

Then my mom started calling it a handicap

I'd call it a "difference". SHE might think it's a handicap, but that's her opinion. Someday, when they want to accurately recall something, they may be glad you wrote it down.

because I'm in my 40s, I'm going through a transitional time in my life of figuring out who I am and what's important to me,

I have no idea if it's got anything to do with your age, and I sure wouldn't call it a "mid-life crisis". That sounds a bit condescending. But, it IS true that you're working on figuring out who you are and what's important to you, isn't it? And, it seems like that's a GOOD thing. There are a lot of people who lead unexamined lives. I think that's a bit sad. I think figuring out who I am and what's important to be is an ongoing process, for life. Seems like a good thing. It might not seem like such a good thing to people who are invested in us never growing or changing.

Well, really I do. I can fake it well enough in specific, time-limited situations where I don't feel threatened, like at conferences for work.

I'm not totally sure I get what you mean here, but maybe I do. Personally, there's a real small group of people I actually feel comfortable just spending time with. I'm fine when I have a clearly defined role, like when I'm working. Otherwise? Not so much. We've talked about this some in therapy. There's a normal range when it comes to things like being sociable or outgoing. I probably always would have been more towards the introverted end of things. But, during my childhood, I learned that what was ok was an unpredictable moving target, but what ever it is, I'm not, and a few other, similar things. In social situations, unless I know people are ok with me being me, I'm not too comfortable. Maybe you've got something similar? Only having Asperger's would make it even more complicated? See, to me, this is just "a thing". It's part of who I am. If people have a problem with it, well then, they do. A lot of people don't.

Did he ever see and admit to anywhere that he should change, even though he didn't want to?

No. That was a flat out statement, take it or leave it, non-negotiable. I filed for divorce the next day. He DID used to "apologize" by saying things like "I'm sorry if you found that upsetting." That was the version of an apology my mother and brother use as well. Not really apologizing for their behavior, just stating they were sorry I objected to it. Pretty much the same thing your mother and sister do.

I regularly acknowledge his suffering in this,

I'm sure that you do, and, to me, that makes a huge difference. He knows that this a problem that you see and acknowledge. He knows you're working on it as best you can. My guess is he loves you and thinks you're well worth the wait, even if it's hard. That's how I would have felt if my ex had had a problem similar to yours.

are sucked up dealing with the crap from my mom.

I wondered, for quite awhile, why my T kept bringing up my mother. I didn't see that there was a problem. She didn't like me and didn't think I was worth much, but it was what it was, "who cares?". I really thought the problem with the relationship was me. There was something wrong with me that we'd never bonded and where do you go from there? We had nothing in common, there were times when it might have been nice to have had a mother, but I'd gotten along fine........ I will never forget that day I realized she was actually, literally, diagnostically, mentally ill. So, don't underestimate the importance of dealing with the crap from your mother. It might be related to more than you think.

 

[DogwoodTree]

I see advantages to using written communication. Less room for misunderstandings or inaccurate remembering, you have a record of the communication........ It seems like a good idea to me, especially in a business situation.

I think what ends up happening is...if we're writing, then I stand my ground on things more. I'm also much more verbose, so in saying more, there's more opportunity for her to not like what I say. But when we have a phone call or face-to-face, I just submit. I back off and let her interpret everything her own way, and I give in. So from her perspective, verbal communication is much more effective. When we're writing, we tend to go around in circles because I don't give in so easily, and she never admits to any real fault (she might back down sometimes, but it's always with a guilt trip).

Thinking about it, I realize I used to be able to stand my ground verbally a good bit more. It never made sense to her, and we'd go around in circles in conversations. Now, though, I don't have enough confidence for that anymore. When I'm having a conversation with someone, it's like I just forget how to use words. It's like I don't even know what I'm thinking or feeling anymore. I just disappear.

during my childhood, I learned that what was ok was an unpredictable moving target, but what ever it is, I'm not, and a few other, similar things. In social situations, unless I know people are ok with me being me, I'm not too comfortable.

Yes, this is part of it. What is "okay" is always changing, from my perspective. I think I've got it figured out, then it changes unpredictably, and people don't understand why I'm confused by that. It's like they're aware of some factor or dimension or something that I'm missing.

And then there are no people who I know "are ok with me being me." Even my T doesn't really feel safe on that. He says he wants me to feel safe being myself, but it feels more like he's just tolerating me rather than actually liking me. I don't know why, but I think it's partly because what really bothers me is what I think of myself. So it doesn't really matter if someone else isn't bothered by who I am. I'm still disgusted with myself, and there's no getting away from myself. So there's never a place to be comfortable with anyone.

If anything, when I'm around people I like and who know me better than just some passing stranger, I'm more on edge and monitoring myself and trying to perform and fit in and be okay, so I don't hurt them or annoy them or disgust them.

 

[scout86]

I'm still disgusted with myself, and there's no getting away from myself.

Have you talked about that with your T? That sounds like there might be a cognitive distortion buried there somewhere.

from her perspective, verbal communication is much more effective.

That makes sense. Of course, it's kind of a problem, from your side of things. I'm not sure what you do about that. She's not going to change and you shouldn't have to. (As far as I'm concerned, she's the one who's 'wrong' and the appropriate thing would be for her to accept your preferred method of communication.)

What do you think it would take for you to accept yourself as 'ok' just the way you are? Doesn't mean you can't work on improving things you'd like to improve, that's separate. Just that you, as you are, is a perfectly ok person.