Drawing That Line.

[mary1979]

1) The bolded section above... IMO That's one of the things that abuse f*cks with the hardes...

Do the house rules apply to adults also @FridayJones?

 

[mary1979]

I like that you encourage your kids to defend themselves btw.

I'd almost forgotten old school values.
The modern world sucks at times.

 

[Powder]

I agree with Lionheart that abuse is the absence of something needed (agreement on basic rights), not the presence of something harmful, at its roots. Secondly, on top of the missing rights of another person can be compounded with the deliberate introduction of something intended to manipulate or change the other person's behavior without regard to the effect it will have (short or long term) on the social environment of others.

This could be as small as leaving your shoes in the way so that someone else trips and falls to failure to make a home accessible to someone else, as if the home were based only on your needs or making unilateral decisions for others "Because it's for their own good." In this way, ordering for someone else at the restaurant is abusive if that person didn't expect or request that of you. Men used to order for their dates. Ostensibly, this was to save them from having to do it. It can be stressful. But, it also strips the person of their agency and power and voice.

Women and children are expected to order for themselves now. But it's still customary for men to hold a door open. The truth is that we all should hold the door for anyone coming in behind us for the reason #1 above; there are other people around us with needs and it's courtesy. If a door is heavy, then it is NOT abusive or even sexist for a larger person to hold it longer when a smaller person or a person with a disability. This is common courtesy.

Abuse is the line when the person is not acting out of consideration for the group's and their own needs in balance. Abuse is when the needs of others is not met when it could have been met without damage to the person who could have met it (Neglect is a form of Abuse). I do not see a need to differentiate between Neglect and Abuse and to try to outline what behavior is which seems like splitting hairs to me. Abuse is when Neglect in some area is already the norm and negative behavior has now been added to the already negligent situation.

If you find this philosophy useful read on. If not, it just goes into an example of adult-child that I have come to realize after 16 years of thinking about this with my parenting and healing journey. I am not "right" but this is where I'm working through these ideas, personally.

Montessori claims, for instance, that most adults "childproof" their homes by putting away breakables so the child cannot ruin adults' prized possessions. But, adults commonly fail to see the home from the child's perspective and place child appropriate towels, washcloths, soap, stools, books, toys, clothes, and other needed items at child-level. Even art work on the walls are likely too high up for a child's perspective.

Parents who design their home around all its members so that everyone can be safe and reach whatever s/he needs without being beholden to someone else or a burden will have better behaved children who feel able to do self-care from a young age.

I use this example because I feel that a LACK of this kind of consideration of the needs of others is at the heart of an abusive home. The more a person can only see life from a self-centered perspective, the less effective that person's interventions are, the more frustrated that person will be with others, the more they will blame others, and the more they will begin to try using coercion and negative or harmful ways of getting things done.

Truth is, if they knew proactive, preventative, and positive ways to set up the social system around them to work better, they would not resort to the abuse unless they are sadistic at the core.

My parents were sadistic, and they would not even understand Montessori. It would sound ridiculous to them because for them Neglect is "Independence" and Care is "weakness."

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but some people's opinions do permanent damage to other people. Better opinions = better results for people and their futures.

--

Another example is that my wonderful dog, a black labrador retriever, was getting into the garbage frequently. Instead of punishing the dog, or letting this happen further, I bought a taller can with a closing lid. She has never gotten into the can. She could, but she doesn't because it is difficult.

Instead of abusing my dog, or harming her for her bad behavior, I can prevent her behavior with relative ease. I feel happier with my dog, I like her more, because she "seems" like a better dog. Better opinion = better results for everyone.

I had to think and I had to spend some $. But the 20 minutes and $40 has saved me hours of clearing up mess and brought a peaceful feeling well worth $40.

For human difficulties, the thinking and the $ can be more involved. And actual talking and communication is needed.

Open and humble communication ongoing is good to clear the air instead of letting things fester. It helps reach solutions that work. Positive, as Lionheart said.

Even in good families, things DO fester until they Explode.

Keep them talking, be open and willing, and loving and it will go well.

Great, great topic!

 

[mary1979]

I agree with Lionheart that abuse is the absence of something needed (agreement on basic rights), not the p...

Wow @Muse, some of that was DEEP, my daughter would LOVEa chat with you.
I think I.will.need to read it a.couple times to absorb

 

[Friday]

Do the house rules apply to adults also @FridayJones?

<grin> That's what makes them house-rules :D

I have a bunch of personal rules, the kiddos have their own rules of capability that they progress through plus their own personal rules they build for themselves, and there are a whole helluva lot of transient rules that change depending on circumstance... But house-rules apply to anyone under my protection. Most especially, myself. That's ground zero.

There are always exceptions. When is it okay to yell? When there's danger or you're far away... Doesn't mean you can't ask the house / inform the house that you're about to have a screaming tantrum, it just means you don't have to ask/inform the house if there's danger or you're far away. In those 2 situations? It's always fine to yell... unless someone asks you not to. Like if we're sneaking. If sneaking? That's breaking the norm, so shhhhhhh! :sneaky:

ADHD kids... Meant that things most people learn by observation... Really need to be spelled out. What not to do doesn't really help people with impulse control issues. (There are 10,000 things not to do for every given situation. Too long of a list.) What TO do, on the other hand? That helps.

Looping this back around to abuse & violence...

I'm a naturally violent person. I tend to spend most of my time around other people who are naturally violent. Strictly codifying violence? CAN (not always, by any means, but can) make for really fun / easy living. Whether you're talking sports, or a screaming match in the living room. When each and every party agrees TO the rules, AND abides by them? It makes it fun. :D The difference between venting that leaves everyone relaxed by the end, or an impassioned debate enjoyed by all... And verbal abuse.

In abuse? There either are no rules, or they only flow in one direction; one person wants something and it doesn't matter if no one else agrees to it they take what they want and everyone else be damned.

^^^ That ^^^ happens occasionally to even the very best of grown up people (and is the norm for young, and esp very young, children who are still learning how to co-exist with others). Loss of control... Happens. Control is a learned thing. The rules we live by? Are learned things. The very best of people will snap under the right provocation. The grieving widow, the hormonal teenager, the distraught father... There are quite simply times in everyone's lives where Snap! The rules they live their lives by fly out the window. This is understood at a gut level by most people, and we -as a species- tend to cut them slack for it... Up to a point. We've all, most of us, been bowed under similar pressures and have behaved badly. Which is why I said "pattern of behavior" up in my original post. When it's a pattern, when it's not breaking their own rules, but IS part of their rule-set to behave a certain way? To me, that's a necessary component for a person to be abusive. No rules, rules that don't apply to themselves, or rules that include taking their shit out on people who don't agree to it.

((And by agree I don't mean put up with it. I mean, if asked in a calm way would smile and say "Of course! Sounds good!" Or "Not right now, maybe later." and their input is accepted.))

 

[Changing4Best]

Any action on the part of another that causes pain of any kind is abuse, as far as I am concerned. A boss can be abusive to their employees by yelling at them in front of other employees. This should take place in private and not in a yelling voice.

Any physical maltreatment is unacceptable. It does not matter if the woman does it to the man or the man does it to the woman.

If one expects something in the bedroom that the other does not like, and refuses to take "No." for an answer, this is abusive, in my opinion.

Being restrained is only acceptable in the situation that one will harm oneself or another, if not restrained. This is especially true in the case of children, when they have temper tantrums.

These are my opinions on the subject. There is probably more to this, like being forced to do something against one's will might be OK, if the thing is for the benefit of the person or child being forced, for instance being made to eat one's vegetables ;)

 

[Enaila]

Emotional abuse does leave some deep scars and sometimes the scars aren't noticed until the abuse is discontinued. Use of sarcasm is abuse in my mind. Teasing a person playfully, depending on how will you know them isn't abuse, but a sarcastic remark is meant to hurt. I feel behaviors become abuse when they are intended to hurt or for power and control.

I guess intent is a big part to me on what constitutes abuse. As a child, I didn't understand the intent of why my father was yelling at me, spanking me, throwing things, breaking things, or dropping me off alongside a highway in the dark when I was four. Now I know it was for power and control. Later he resorted to sarcasm, when he realized I could tell the police about physical abuse.

Behaviors meant to control, manipulate, or coerse someone into doing what a person feels uncomfortable with, is abuse unless meant to save the person's life.