Frustrated With A Fellow Ptsd Sufferer/friend

[Justmehere]

I am frustrated! I wish I could understand what it is really about, because even though my friend has done some unhealthy things, it's not worth this anger. I think it comes down to feeling mad about my own unmet needs in my own life.

I am still frustrated with her too. I'm trying to take my anger as sign there are some unresolved issues for me, and that I need to hold my boundaries with her.
@Cashew - thanks for the strong support. It helps. :hug:s back to you. @lostandforgotten - you help me feel so heard. :hug: Thanks @Suzetig for encouragement too. :) @hodge - thanks for the reminder that I'm not responsible for her. :) @EveHarrington - you are right, she's got to be invested in her own healing. I'm realizing she isn't willing to do what it takes.

Does she pull this kind of stunt on you often? Not that it really matters. Once is too much. It's like, baaaaaack that shit up. Now. Try again, without the manipulative BS, or bite me.

It's actually new... to me. I'm not sure if it is new in general. I don't do passive aggressive. No, just no. Not even. I'll call her out on it and give her a chance to try again one last time. But if she keeps engaging in it... I can't do that. It's going to be the end of the relationship.

@RecedingMoonlight - Thanks for the reminder that I'm not responsible for her emotions... I think I also have to remember that I don't have to take them in either. Your example of how you handled things with your sufferer was really good! I think it's very similar to what I need to do with her, if I stay in the relationship.

I am reminded of what she explained she felt was supportive from her ex-boyfriend/abuser. He would act cold, distant, unreactive to her having severe flashbacks and panic to the point where is was not able to speak and vomiting for hours. It's good to not react... but he went further to the point of unresponsiveness. But she described him but having no response to her suffering or abusing her for her having emotions. In fact. the examples she gave me of him being "supportive" sounded more like a narcissists or sociopaths response to someone in pain, not one of healthy support and/or boundaried distance. He would do things that sounded cold, heartless, and self absorbed to me. She was able to identify they were in co-dependent relationship, he was abusive verbally and sexually. But I don't think she understands at all that when someone expresses this level of suffering, healthy people (or people trying to be healthy) have a response to it. I can't save her. I can't do much actually. But it's not gonna "fall off my radar." She matters. Her life matters. She has value.

@scout86 - thanks for the feedback! I think what you are pointing out is essential.

There might be a point in letting this run awhile and see where it ends up. But only if you can keep it in perspective and not get sucked in to the drama. Have a clear idea of what a friendship looks like to you and what appropriate ways for friends to treat each other are. Stick to your guns and see what happens. It's in HER best interest to learn to deal with other people straight up and dump the whole "poor me" thing. You can give her the opportunity to continue the friendship and learn something about playing well with others. She can chose to accept or reject the offer.

Well said. I can clearly define to her what works for me and what a good friendship through difficult times looks like for me. She will either say she can try to do that, do it or not. It's probably really important that I do this all the more, in light of her recent very unhealthy relationships and possibly skewed perspective on what is healthy.

@ Anonymous poster - I think you have a valid perspective and I'm glad for the input. I'm not sure what is and isn't dissociation, and you are right, I could be giving her the benefit of the doubt too much. She is honest that she does remember the texts. (which doesn't mean it was or wasn't dissociative....) I am trying to understand her through the lense of my own experiences or how I would think or handle the situation. Years ago, early into my treatment for PTSD, I actually sent suicidal texts to my therapist and I didn't remember. I didn't initiate any contact with her to reassure her. My therapist contacted me about them and my response was a panicky "omg, yeah, I'm ok... I think... I don't know, I wrote that?! I guess I am not doing as well as I thought."

Most importantly, I was able to connect and understand my therapists concern and need to make sure I was ok even when I didn't remember.

I'm obviously not my friend's therapist, so it's a very different situation... but still, the lack of her understanding hey, yeah, I reasonably would like reassurance you are still alive... this is odd to me.I wonder if this is perhaps related to the long relationship with her ex-boyfriend and if she got used to having no response from him (or an abusive response). In the end, only she can tell me why, and I hope to ask her more to see if I can understand her experience better and what is happening here.

I think she may be crying out for attention. Maybe she needs it - but different than the kind of attention she is used to. I can't be the one to give her what she really needs. I do agree she needs to get into some kind of more intensive therapy, and DBT would probably be one great option. If she brings this subject up, I will be encouraging her to talk to her therapist about what he recommends.

@joeylittle - thank you for the great feedback. I think I know what you are talking about, and I'm thinking of areas of my life where I can have that ability to say, "this is my decision, accept it or not, it doesn't change" - in a way where I'm calm and I'm not trying to persuade the other person to come to any agreement with me. I think you are right on about the "unwinnable war to get other people to change." Bingo. I can only change me. Not her. I have to accept that she is where she is at. There is a kind of strength is not actually even trying to convince someone. Sometimes they listen more carefully, often they don't, but I don't get dragged into a war I can't win. I'm also clear about what my limits are without having them negotiated.

It is important for me to remember that I am at risk of getting too easily drawn in to having a different ending here because of losing others to suicide.

It is my hope to communicate clear what I need to stay in the relationship, to be able to have contact right now, and if she can't do it, she can't do it. This friend now... she will reach out for the help she knows is there if/when she is ready and make the changes needed to stay friends, or she won't and her life will carry on, or she will push everyone healthy away, or she will end her life.

I can't change what she will choose to do. I think this has been important for me to re-accept.

On the post it notes on my monitor, which I will see when on Skype with her, I actually put down (ok I know this seems really silly but this kind of thing has helped for work related meetings on Skype)
"I am letting go of the 'need' to convince her."
"I have made a decision to engage in healthy relationships."
"I will make clear what I need for this to be a healthy relationship."
"It's ok to say no, I can't do that without explaining."

I plan to tell her:
1.) I am not abandoning her. I'm letting her know what I need in order to stay in the relationship.
2.) I care about her a lot, and miss her and the way it was when it was a two way relationship.
3.) For now, I need to communicate with her on Skype only for the time being. We can text to set up a time to Skype, but that's it. No phone calls, no texts about other things. I need Skype communication.

I am debating about what else to say... I think that maybe it's best I keep this clear/simple and not over-complicate it (like I do most of the time. Sigh.)

Thanks all for helping me think this through.

 

[hodge]

It sounds like you have a really good plan in place. This kind of reminds me of a time several years ago (pre-PTSD) when both I and one of my best friends were depressed. We had several phone conversations where all we did was go over how depressed we were. One day, she called me and was like, we cannot continue wallowing in our own and each other's depression. We have to fight it and talk only about positive things. Yaay for her, because that pulled me out before too long, and her, too. (Today she's a therapist, which is kind of weird because it makes me really on guard about what I share with her. I know she is a recovering codependent, as am I, and I avoid saying anything that might cause her to worry about me.)

I hope your actions spur your friend into change, but try not to be disappointed if they don't. It's really up to her. You are doing everything you can to help her -- the best thing, I think, is sticking to your boundaries. That should wake up a lot of people, but maybe not her. I hope it does, though.

And sticky notes are not silly. I use them all the time for everything, and I mean everything -- what to make for dinner, when to brush my teeth, and on and on, lol.

 

[anonymous]

That sounds very well thought through and wise. I hope she is able to respond in a way that would be good for you both. Just remember too that she has set boundaries for you in the past (which you respected) when she said she couldn't be there for you. It really is OK to set boundaries and some people need much more rigid ones than others.

Also to clarify what I meant about doing things when dissociated: I totally understand what you are saying and I too have done similar things. If you didn't know you did it then it really isn't your fault and you were not being selfish or oblivious. I of course like you have spent energy trying to stay present as a result of knowing Ive done this in the past and so have tried to be responsible that way. I don't get the impression your friend is unaware of having contacted you. If she is aware then the motivations and things happening with her reasoning processes are totally different to the ones you have experienced.

One of the things that I realised kept me in caretaking roles in relationships was not only too much empathy but rather projection. It was hard to admit but I realised I often gave others my motivations and feelings. That actually wasn't empathy as I felt it was. Empathy is the accurate experiencing of another persons feelings and thoughts. This is one of the things that kept getting me into trouble again and again in my life. I now constantly watch for it.

You have much common ground with her and you care about her but she is her and you are you. Often people behave in certain ways because they haven;t yet learned a different approach. Good luck.

 

[EveHarrington]

Actually------really, I'm in awe of how well you've been handling this situation! You've really been thinking the situation through and trying to be a great friend while maintaining proper boundaries for your own health. I hope that everything works out in this friendship----you two remain friends and are able to move back into a healthy/balanced relationship.

I hope your friend does indeed step up to the plate and gain control of her own healing. It's terrifying (as we all know), but when I look back at just how much change I've been able to accomplish in my own life, I'm in a bit of awe! Never did I think I'd come this far, and never do I ever want to go back

Do you think that maybe at a later date she'd be more open to joining the forum and getting support? Perhaps the first time you suggested it she simply wasn't in the right frame of mind to be able to take advantage of this great resource.

 

[Stickler]

Thanks, y'all...this thread was very good.

 

[Justmehere]

One of the things that I realised kept me in caretaking roles in relationships was not only too much empathy but rather projection...You have much common ground with her and you care about her but she is her and you are you.

This is a really good point and an important distinction! Wow, this has given me something to think about. Thanks.

@EveHarrington - You are kind! You know, I hope that she will join the forum someday. I think she could benefit a lot from knowing, really knowing, she isn't alone. :)

Update: So we talked. Skype died on my end, so I suggested we talk on the phone instead.

I didn't hold the boundary as well as I had wanted. :( But I got stronger and more clear as the conversation went on, and I didn't let her pushy any other boundaries with me.

She did massively panic when I set the boundary about texts, and begged for texts. Begged. I got wishy washy about what I needed, when I needed to be firm and clear. The good thing about setting boundaries, I can try again. :) The good thing about holding boundaries, it's not a one time event, and I got better even as the conversation went on.

I've reached out to my therapist and asked if I could call my friend from my appointment tomorrow. T my request, my therapist is going to keep me accountable to tell my friend that I've given it more thought and I need to be clear, I can only do pre-planned skype for now. My therapist is all on board. She also quickly reminded me, it's going to take practice to be able to do this. Practice is what I'm getting! :)

The rest of the conversation went ok. Maybe... I now think she has some strong borderline personality disorder type of behaviors that come out with those who are closest to her, and now that her ex is gone, it's coming out towards me now. I don't know if she is clinically borderline or not, and it's not my place to try to diagnose her. But her behaviors, even as she describes them, are now solidly in that realm of behaviors. It is what it is. Borderline behaviors do not have to be the end of a friendship, but it's important for me to keep strong boundaries. If I can't do that, then I do need to walk away, for my own sake. I have enough of my own crap that it won't work unless I can keep boundaries. It may not work even then.

Even she said she felt like she was treating me differently ever since the breakup. She even said that yeah, she was treating me like she treated her ex too. She didn't see the problem in that. :( I do see it, and I don't have to convince her that this isn't ok. I can keep my boundaries anyhow. I get that now. I am choosing to not allow this in my life (except on pre-planned Skype calls where I can resist the bait more easily.) Our pre-planned Skype calls are only about 1-2 times a month, and she pointed that out. It does make sense she feels abandoned, but this is what I can do in order to stay.

After saying everything I needed to say, we talked for over an hour. I mostly asked prompting questions, and it lead her to admit she needed more help and to start thinking of solutions on her own... She asked me what I thought she should do. I told her it's something her therapist is best skilled to guide her through, and if he's not doing that, as she started to claim, then she needs to insist on / find a therapist who will because he's not doing the job she HIRED him to do.

It felt like a trap to get into suggestions. I think she was asking for my suggestion out of that intense fear of abandonment and not out of a real desire to considering options. Her therapist actually has solid suggestions. She won't do them for rather solvable reasons, but that doesn't matter. She isn't ready. She did come up with things she does plan to tell her therapist about - all her idea. So she might actually do it.

Because of what everyone has pointed out on this thread, I was able to see the pushing and pulling, the guilt trips, the unintentional efforts to try and change my actions, lack of seeing me as a separate person to her... and I didn't get so caught up in it as I might have.

She did explain why she wasn't responding to my "how are you doing?" texts and requests for her to call me. That was a weird part of the conversation. She started off the call by apologizing for "dumping on" me. Those were her words. She said she had not been treating me like a person, a friend, and she needs to be more responsive. She said she "had lost touch with" the fact that I was "a real human being," because it was easy to just send a panicky text and then avoid it... She said, "I mean yeah, I did text you to even say I wanted to die and you were doing whatever you were doing and couldn't respond in the moment..." It almost felt passive aggressive. I am so very not used to her being like this at all.
I replied, "whatever I was doing? I was sleeping. It was 3am."
"It was? oh geez..."
She did continue on to validate that it must have sucked when she couldn't even indicate if she was alive the next day. She said it was very unfair to me. It was over the top. She was trying to just get me to not leave. It was also a lack of separateness. I am not her. She is not me. Just because she is in a crisis doesn't mean I am even awake.

She did explain that even seeing the question "how are you doing?" stirred up her sucidiality again, and she would panic and avoid it so that she didn't get worse. She also said she couldn't be "required to discuss my emotions." Push and pull. This is new. I was so confused by it in the moment, because she hasn't been this way before. Like ever.

No matter what is going on for her, things are going to change. Either this kind of behavior will be limited to our pre-planned (and infrequent) Skype calls or I will make the choice that she can't be in my life at all. It may take me a few tries, but I will get better at boundaries in this, one way or another...

Thanks again everyone. I appreciate it a lot.

 

[EveHarrington]

I hope you are able to give your friend time to change. (While maintaining yourself, of course!)

Change is quite difficult. I tend to get frustrated when people expect miraculous changes in me over night. Most of the time changes are small and incremental. Of course as someone with PTSD I'm sure you know this from working through your own stuff.

Stay strong with the boundaries and I know both of you will be able to weather the storm!

 

[anonymous]

It sounds like you are figuring out a lot and seeing a lot. I have felt in the past that I often got/get into trouble because I dont allow myself to see what is front of me when it comes to others. Seeing allows you to be able to make better decisions about what you can and cant cope with.

Your part is looking after those boundaries and communicating them in a clear respectful way. The rest is up to her whether she is able to meet them or not. I hope for both of you she can. If she cant then sometimes that can help someone too as it can be a learning experience that even if painful can help push them towards healing.

This behaviour wont only be with you and if she is ever going to have healthy relationships and be happier she needs to learn these things. Its very telling that she said she forgot you were a real human being. I hope this situation helps her engage with her next step in treatment.

You are doing a really great job learning boundary setting and assertiveness.