Swift
Diamond Member
Unwatching.
Sorry all. I just can't.
Sorry all. I just can't.
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Medical Genital mutilation
- Post starter Anarchy
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- Post starter
- #38
If you need to resort to a straw man fallacy in debate
Forget it
As for your toadying to the English speaking medical establishment. Bear in mind that on continental Europe (with higher educational and professional standards than Britain or north America) Mutilation isn't resorted to
The "medical reasons" don't exist there. Does that suggest something to you?
Don't try to use appeal to authority, appeal to bandwagon, appeal to current practice or appeal to ridicule
They're logical fallacies as well. None of them constitutes a sound argument
Do you understand?
You do know that when talking about prevalence of circumcision in males under the age of 17 only three European countries have a lower prevalence than the U.K. (3.8%) - Spain at 1.8% and Denmark and Finland at 1.6%. All other European countries who publish records have a higher prevalence.
So, mutilation clearly is resorted to in continental Europe, at a higher level mostly than in the U.K. unless you’d like to back up your assertions with evidence.
So, mutilation clearly is resorted to in continental Europe, at a higher level mostly than in the U.K. unless you’d like to back up your assertions with evidence.
- Post starter
- #40
Neverthesame
Diamond Member
I understand that this is a difficult topic for you, one which we do not agree on.
I also understand that is fine. Both ways.
I am bowing out for now, as I don't want to get into a nasty row with someone I do respect and do find has many interesting and thought provoking ideas on a wide variety of topics.
I'm glad you get the UTI's checked regularly. The last time I had one (it was caused by a medication that gave me urinary retention), I didn't do that and ended up with a kidney infection.
I'm glad you're not as dumb as i am in that regard.
I agree to disagree. Leaving it at that for now.
I also understand that is fine. Both ways.
I am bowing out for now, as I don't want to get into a nasty row with someone I do respect and do find has many interesting and thought provoking ideas on a wide variety of topics.
I'm glad you get the UTI's checked regularly. The last time I had one (it was caused by a medication that gave me urinary retention), I didn't do that and ended up with a kidney infection.
I'm glad you're not as dumb as i am in that regard.
I agree to disagree. Leaving it at that for now.
joeylittle
Sponsor
Wowzers.
A benefit of this site is exposure: that is to say, navigating ones own response to potentially triggering material.
Navigating includes:
— emotional regulation
— thought challenging
— disconnecting
Don’t assume that someone being passionate is the same as them arguing you down.
Understand that opinions will differ
If you’re going to react purely emotionally, at least try and read clearly.
That’s my Admin hat. Posting as a member now:
(Otherwise, might as well call my rapists some of the best lovers out there).
I think you were making a pithy point - and I understand your point, which was to do with addressing male pain from friction in inter course - but the example you used for it was false, and being pithy isn’t worth risking the spread of misinformation.
You’re not the only one doing that in the thread, it’s happening throughout. This was just one example.
So why are we still confused about comparing?
I think it’s been said on the thread: in western nations (at least - it’s all I can speak to) male circumcision has been a ‘tradition’ for a long, long time. It’s a bizarre, backwards, and sometimes damaging tradition. It claims roots in religion, in medicine, in health. All those roots are being proven to be myths. False.
There are some cases where it’s medically, a necessity. Anyone have statistics? It’d be interesting to see them.
The same is true for some forms of female genital manipulation. Again, statistics....I’ll go looking.
And - female genital mutilation is a phenomenon that has roots in religion, medicine, health...all these things are also myths, also bizarre, also backwards and damaging.
Rooted in myth, potentially damaging, painful: I’d argue this applies to all non-consensual genital manipulation (including intersex manipulation)
And it sucks for all survivors who have suffered because of these actions taken against their will for no medical reason. The end.
I agree strongly with @Anarchy ’s fundamental point - in the West, in many places, we societally ‘accept’ male genital manipulations, specifically circumcision, as the norm. We are more easily horrified at female genital manipulation because it is more foreign to us.
But there is no point to arguing that one matters more than the other.
And I’d say both are still in need of advocacy. Education. Social change.
Intersex has even farther to go, to catch up. Those manipulations performed on children against their consent were really kept quite secret until not that long ago.
Them’s my two cents.
A benefit of this site is exposure: that is to say, navigating ones own response to potentially triggering material.
Navigating includes:
— emotional regulation
— thought challenging
— disconnecting
Don’t assume that someone being passionate is the same as them arguing you down.
Understand that opinions will differ
If you’re going to react purely emotionally, at least try and read clearly.
That’s my Admin hat. Posting as a member now:
That last bit, I’ve also read. The first bit (far more likely to be sexually dysfunctional) - can you link to any studies on that? I’m curious about the phenomenon, and what is meant by ‘far’.
Come on, bullshit. That’s perpetuating a different kind of myth. Women lubricate differently at different ages, different times in their cycle, due to different health and diet and stimuli. It’s an over-simplification at best to say that if it’s being done ‘right’, she will get wet.
(Otherwise, might as well call my rapists some of the best lovers out there).
I think you were making a pithy point - and I understand your point, which was to do with addressing male pain from friction in inter course - but the example you used for it was false, and being pithy isn’t worth risking the spread of misinformation.
That didn’t happen. Try and not mind-read when dealing with disagreement.
You’re not the only one doing that in the thread, it’s happening throughout. This was just one example.
This was a response to suzetig’s quote above, and you’re right, and she’s right: it’s as close as the analogy goes, which means the analogy is not exact.
So why are we still confused about comparing?
I think it’s been said on the thread: in western nations (at least - it’s all I can speak to) male circumcision has been a ‘tradition’ for a long, long time. It’s a bizarre, backwards, and sometimes damaging tradition. It claims roots in religion, in medicine, in health. All those roots are being proven to be myths. False.
There are some cases where it’s medically, a necessity. Anyone have statistics? It’d be interesting to see them.
The same is true for some forms of female genital manipulation. Again, statistics....I’ll go looking.
And - female genital mutilation is a phenomenon that has roots in religion, medicine, health...all these things are also myths, also bizarre, also backwards and damaging.
Rooted in myth, potentially damaging, painful: I’d argue this applies to all non-consensual genital manipulation (including intersex manipulation)
And it sucks for all survivors who have suffered because of these actions taken against their will for no medical reason. The end.
I agree strongly with @Anarchy ’s fundamental point - in the West, in many places, we societally ‘accept’ male genital manipulations, specifically circumcision, as the norm. We are more easily horrified at female genital manipulation because it is more foreign to us.
But there is no point to arguing that one matters more than the other.
And I’d say both are still in need of advocacy. Education. Social change.
Intersex has even farther to go, to catch up. Those manipulations performed on children against their consent were really kept quite secret until not that long ago.
Them’s my two cents.
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Justmehere
Sponsor
I’m not making any argument in favor or against allowing parents to circumcise babies. In my faith, some people do it, some don’t. So. It’s complicated. I have yet to run into anyone who is doing it to prevent the baby from masturbating. That’s rather stupid of people to claim. Circumcised boys and men still masturbate. There are always crazy idiots out there ready to abuse any belief system, Kellog included.
My impulse for my own child, if I ever had one, would be to wait until they are older and have choices... and damn, is there no pain control for men who choose to do this as adults?
Anyhow, there are two things I’d like to point out in the discussion you have started @Anarchy.
That being said, does cricumcison affect some men? Sure, makes sense to me that it would. Sex is complicated, is it not? You wrote about it taking longer. I know many women (and even some men) like it when it takes a man a bit longer. Is that a case for circumcising? Nope, not at all. Plus, I think it needs to be the choice of the guy to undergo something that would have that impact on them. But, when you refer to foreplay and the like taking longer as all bad things, it’s useful to remember that not everyone sees those types of impacts that way. Again, I’m not saying anyone should go through it for that purpose, that would be horrible.
When problems with sex related to trauma begins to affect someone’s self worth, it might be worthwhile to re-frame some of it on a personal level. While I get that this thread was to talk about the practice generally, your personal experience and pain with this procedure comes through.
As a rape trauma survivor with physical damage, physical intimacy is uh, complicated, for me. One of the best partners I had reframed some of what I have to do to manage it as creative ways to have fun together. I think they were trying humor me a little, out of true care and compassion, and wow, it did really help when they didn’t see it as a burden and reframed it for me as a plus. Do I see it as a plus? Not really. But when I’m navigating it with someone, reframing what I need to do as not bad or good but just is... and let’s make the best of it... it goes better. It’s helped me reduce some of the impact of the trauma and shame about what wasn’t my fault. Being circumcised as a baby isn’t your fault either. Let go of the shame.
Some of the way you write about this makes me wonder if you have gotten this wrapped up into your self worth a little? Maybe not. I could be totally wrong. But that often happens for trauma survivors. The damage done feat mixed up with self worth.
Taking longer and being less sensitive during sex is in the same category as say... living in a wheelchair or being blind? I mean, let’s get real. No one (I hope) is claiming social security disability over those types of effects that you describe. I’m not saying that makes circumcision ok. But you lose me a little when you start to claim it’s a “significant physical handicap.”
Using “mutilated male” strikes me as another a way to describe it as if it’s part of the identity of the person. If we are going to start claiming these men are all significantly physically handicapped, well, let’s follow that out. In a world where most informed folks try to call people with disabilities... well, people with disabilities... not disabled people... in order to better think of them as whole people, calling men “mutilated males” seems a bit off. And it’s not just word use. It has an impact. And it’s the overall tone of your posts (and some men have reacted to it accordingly, not wanting to be seen as mutilated males or feel bad about what otherwise they don’t find to be problematic for themselves.)
I am covered in scars from trauma. But I don’t think of myself as a “scarred female.” I am a woman with scars. See how that’s different? It’s different to me.
You also refer to it as “amputation” and other words to build it up, and by trying to build it up with bigger words, you lose some of the persuasiveness of your argument to me. Circumcision is circumcision. When I think of it, I honestly think back to growing up on a farm... and I don’t think of it as a happy pain-free situation.
I believe we should let circumcision mean what it means. Let that word carry the meaning. Don’t try to dress it up in other terms.
Moving on past semantics (meaningful, but still semantics)....
Science is clear that uncircumcised men may have to use more lube, but you lose the persuasive power of that point by surrounding it with other inaccurate claims. Such as...
Studies have also shown cancer risk is less with FGM. Also not cause to do it. (This is the same for removing most sex organs or parts of them. Cancer risk usually drops. I mean, yeah, there are less parts to get cancer.)
I am wondering what helps you and other men cope with the negative impacts of circumcision. Have you found anything helpful?
My impulse for my own child, if I ever had one, would be to wait until they are older and have choices... and damn, is there no pain control for men who choose to do this as adults?
Anyhow, there are two things I’d like to point out in the discussion you have started @Anarchy.
Some of your points are valid, but I believe some are incorrect. A few:
This has been shown to have no clear consistent effect on actual sensation during sex. (I know, suprising huh?) Study here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4498824/ They make an interesting case that circumcision doesn’t affect sensation during sex because of the way arousal works. Huffington Post gives a more lay person’s overview here: https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/9743242
That being said, does cricumcison affect some men? Sure, makes sense to me that it would. Sex is complicated, is it not? You wrote about it taking longer. I know many women (and even some men) like it when it takes a man a bit longer. Is that a case for circumcising? Nope, not at all. Plus, I think it needs to be the choice of the guy to undergo something that would have that impact on them. But, when you refer to foreplay and the like taking longer as all bad things, it’s useful to remember that not everyone sees those types of impacts that way. Again, I’m not saying anyone should go through it for that purpose, that would be horrible.
When problems with sex related to trauma begins to affect someone’s self worth, it might be worthwhile to re-frame some of it on a personal level. While I get that this thread was to talk about the practice generally, your personal experience and pain with this procedure comes through.
As a rape trauma survivor with physical damage, physical intimacy is uh, complicated, for me. One of the best partners I had reframed some of what I have to do to manage it as creative ways to have fun together. I think they were trying humor me a little, out of true care and compassion, and wow, it did really help when they didn’t see it as a burden and reframed it for me as a plus. Do I see it as a plus? Not really. But when I’m navigating it with someone, reframing what I need to do as not bad or good but just is... and let’s make the best of it... it goes better. It’s helped me reduce some of the impact of the trauma and shame about what wasn’t my fault. Being circumcised as a baby isn’t your fault either. Let go of the shame.
Some of the way you write about this makes me wonder if you have gotten this wrapped up into your self worth a little? Maybe not. I could be totally wrong. But that often happens for trauma survivors. The damage done feat mixed up with self worth.
I disagree about brushing a broad stroke that *all* circumcised men are “significantly physically handicapped.”
Taking longer and being less sensitive during sex is in the same category as say... living in a wheelchair or being blind? I mean, let’s get real. No one (I hope) is claiming social security disability over those types of effects that you describe. I’m not saying that makes circumcision ok. But you lose me a little when you start to claim it’s a “significant physical handicap.”
Using “mutilated male” strikes me as another a way to describe it as if it’s part of the identity of the person. If we are going to start claiming these men are all significantly physically handicapped, well, let’s follow that out. In a world where most informed folks try to call people with disabilities... well, people with disabilities... not disabled people... in order to better think of them as whole people, calling men “mutilated males” seems a bit off. And it’s not just word use. It has an impact. And it’s the overall tone of your posts (and some men have reacted to it accordingly, not wanting to be seen as mutilated males or feel bad about what otherwise they don’t find to be problematic for themselves.)
I am covered in scars from trauma. But I don’t think of myself as a “scarred female.” I am a woman with scars. See how that’s different? It’s different to me.
You also refer to it as “amputation” and other words to build it up, and by trying to build it up with bigger words, you lose some of the persuasiveness of your argument to me. Circumcision is circumcision. When I think of it, I honestly think back to growing up on a farm... and I don’t think of it as a happy pain-free situation.
I believe we should let circumcision mean what it means. Let that word carry the meaning. Don’t try to dress it up in other terms.
Moving on past semantics (meaningful, but still semantics)....
Science is clear that uncircumcised men may have to use more lube, but you lose the persuasive power of that point by surrounding it with other inaccurate claims. Such as...
Studies have shown uncircumcised men are at a greater risk for UTIs. Not less.(http://healthland.time.com/2012/07/09/study-uncircumcised-boys-have-a-higher-risk-of-uti/) Studies have also shown that circumcised men are also at a lower risk for STDs and prostate cancer. Is that enough cause to traumatize a baby? No, I don’t think so.
Studies have also shown cancer risk is less with FGM. Also not cause to do it. (This is the same for removing most sex organs or parts of them. Cancer risk usually drops. I mean, yeah, there are less parts to get cancer.)
I am wondering what helps you and other men cope with the negative impacts of circumcision. Have you found anything helpful?
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Neverthesame
Diamond Member
You're right, that was inappropriate. My apologies.
I don't feel I'm mind reading on this one. But maybe I am. Not sure now....
I do remember the last time you called me on something like this, you were absolutely right. You probably are now. When I'm calmed down, I'll take a hard look at myself here and see where I lost the plot.
I don't feel singled out. I'm glad you mentioned me specifically, or I wouldn't have thought to look at my reaction here.
Sorry for going off topic with this post.
I'm sorry Anarchy. Its sounds like a lot has happened to you relating to this.
(FGM is done against a wider context of sex-based oppression.)
The main reason that both male and female mutilation was pushed was. As a cure for the "disease" of masturbation. Same reason. So both boys and girl's suffered from this. And both were sexually oppressed. We don't have to make it a oppression competition. Instead maybe something male and female have incommon. We can sympathise with one and other.
The main reason that both male and female mutilation was pushed was. As a cure for the "disease" of masturbation. Same reason. So both boys and girl's suffered from this. And both were sexually oppressed. We don't have to make it a oppression competition. Instead maybe something male and female have incommon. We can sympathise with one and other.
That's what he's saying. The shite training of the medical practitioners. They are teaching medical practitioners on basis of faulty, incorrect, fraudulent research results. The so called scientific research that shows the medical health benefit was based on ideology. Not real science. It was bias from the start. It wasn't independent unbiased research. It was financially funded and done by people that wanted to promote their ideological agenda.
(both you and your son would have had something to regret forever.)
Maybe they will have regrets in the future! I started noticing my worst problems caused by my mutilation when i became sexually active. I have trouble reaching orgasms. Takes literally hours. And i never reach a orgasm when i use a condom. So there go's the better against STD's argument that some people like to make in favour of this barbarous practice. As men in my position are less likely to use a condom.
(both you and your son would have had something to regret forever.)
Maybe they will have regrets in the future! I started noticing my worst problems caused by my mutilation when i became sexually active. I have trouble reaching orgasms. Takes literally hours. And i never reach a orgasm when i use a condom. So there go's the better against STD's argument that some people like to make in favour of this barbarous practice. As men in my position are less likely to use a condom.
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Friday
Sponsor
Could you site / source that?
In the US I know circumcision becoming the norm has had many different sources. I would be very much surprised that anti-masturbation proponents has been shown to be of greater influence than WWI & WWII (trench foot & jungle rot), when hundreds of thousands of men we’re circ’d as adults by the military, or for military service, then came home & started circumcising their sons as babies.
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