Grooming vs Manipulation

LittleBigFoot

Confident
so this would be seperate to grooming altogether in my experience. this would occur within the context of an equal reletionship whereas grooming tend to occur within an unequal relationship.


for what you are using together those two things would not be used interchangebly because they are not describing the same thing. dv vs grooming are two very different relational dynamics.

this is why you often see grooming applied to children-because children are usually weaker within a power dynamic.

but you can also have it occurring within for example that you could hear of things like hollywood record producers and the like. and a lot of these people are young adults. but they are still dealing with a power dynamic (like s3 just described.)

and which i suppose it can occur in a dv situation but the dynamics in my experience are different anyway-primarily that one partner is severely disadvantaged in some way.

So grooming requires unequal power then, right? So how would that work as an adult? Say there’s a boss who hits on his employee and the only way that employee can keep their job is to cave to the boss’ demands. But as an adult you have the option of reporting to HR (if the company has it) or going to a different job (not super simple but doable enough). So then it would just a boss sexually harassing the employee- not grooming. Possibly professor vs student, but again there’s choices the student could make that would negate any grooming and then it’s just a professor trying to manipulate a situation and just being a gross asshole.
 

ruborcoraxxx

MyPTSD Pro
I think grooming applies more in situations where there was a conscious will from the abuser to bring the target to A specific situation of abuse and exploration. I'd say manipulation is just... manipulation. And it can even be unconscious and I would say generally it's rather short viewed in its targets when there are targets.

Ex: A pimp talking someone in and convince them somehow to prostitute themselves and to pay a substantial comission and getting the person to pay more and more and having their papers stolen and slowly be brought to sexual slavery. That happens with adults all the time.

Other ex: One person knowing X is rich and finds out a way to be married, only to get half of the fortune or more and leaves. Or blackmails to enjoy the prestige or whatever.

These two are examples of grooming. There is an use of some vulnerability (emotional, financial, administrative, list can be long) and use of consistent lie and deceit to bring the victim doing what the abuser whants.

Examples of manipulation: Telling your partner they're stupid and that they're pathetic to be in love with you. It destabilises the partner with the obscure (sometimes clear) aim to control. But not necessarily to exploit (albeit it can turn to be).

Another one: Does anyone want the last glass of wine? (Holding the bottle). This example I chose because it's super silly but it's a form of very light manipulation. One that is so obvious and used by everyone that it became a global joke.

It's also possible to use manipulating skills to make people give you what you want or do things together nicely, even if your intentions aren't obvious.

There are many forms of manipulation. I'd say they are a lot of tools. Under a certain threshold manipulation is just social functioning. Above another one, it can be deception, grooming and many other things.

As former DV sufferer I know well the cycles and all that yada yada. I'd say there are cases where DV is part of the grooming. But others where it's just, bleh, it happened like this. I don't think I've been groomed in that relationship even if it was horrendous and by many aspects manipulative. I've got the whole Fear Obligation and Guilt but it was so disorganized I cannot say it was intentional or consistent. It doesn't invalidate it as a very horrendous DV relationship. Exploitation wasn't the aim, and abuse neither. Also I was capable of defending myself and did it many times. That also didn't help de-escalate at all. Of course he didn't start kicking me on the face otherwise I wouldn't have got in, but the gradual worsening of a DV relationship isn't the same as a deliberate process.
 

internal

Sponsor
So how would that work as an adult?
adults find themselves within unequal power dynamics all the time. a boss and an employee is a good example-

but keep in mind that this dynamic tends to be closer to equal than not equal, in many professions (like minimum wage, mcdonald's, cashier, etc. your boss is just some guy, he has no real control over your career or your life. so it is a little easier to see in that instance what is happening.)

so is a therepist and patient. a therapist that deals with abuse victims who may not have internalized the correct architecture to 1) realize that this is wrong, or 2) that they don't deserve it, or 3) knowing intimate details about them... and on and on.

doctor and patient, lawyer and client, producer and artist, all kinds of things. and the adult has the option, technically, to not be in that situation any more.

but you could say so could a child-a child could just report the teacher or tell an adult-most children are condetioned to this from a very young age. but a skilled groomer/manipulator will make this feel like it is not an option.

but the key facet of that manipulation is to make the person believe they do not have an option but to comply. for example that i know many compenies have hr departments that would not believe or would be more interested to protect the compeny instead of the individuel.

and when the boss does have control of your career and your future and you have kids and you need to eat and get a paycheck-it becomes more complicated. you may have the skills to under stand that you can just leave, but not all adult human beings have those skills.

it is all incredebly complicated in terms of social dynamics and interactions. you mentened before that you were not trying to victim blame, but the idea that some one could "just" do this or that, is very close to doing so.

but also keep in mind that a boss hitting on their employee is not the same thing as sustained grooming, especially if the employee is: closer to equal than not (the job is not a career, they are closer to the same position, both of them are of similer ages, both of them have similer social skills)-

and because most adults don't feel the need to groom other adults. they just abuse them and use manpulative and coerceive tactics to avoid getting into trouble. but it doesn't mean it does not happen. @ruborcoraxxx example is a great one. prostitution, human trafficking, slavery-

those are all usually employing some type of grooming.
 

Movingforward10

MyPTSD Pro
Because I don’t want to take on words that don’t apply to me. Like when people say they got PTSD from tripping on the sidewalk or something else super common/mundane. Nothing angers me more lol, so I don’t want to look at my past and use other people’s terms for something that doesn’t deserve that label. If that makes sense.
That does make sense. But I also wonder if it is being a bit hard on yourself?
 

Chris-duck

MyPTSD Pro
but you could say so could a child-a child could just report the teacher or tell an adult-most children are condetioned to this from a very young age. but a skilled groomer/manipulator will make this feel like it is not an option.
I know this was only said to make a point but I strongly disagree. Adults, the vast majority of them, have the cognitive reasoning power to weigh up pros and cons. Kids don't. Situations are all new n they are pliable n roll with it. Totally different from an adult, even an adult who has had previous trauma.
 

internal

Sponsor
I know this was only said to make a point but I strongly disagree. Adults, the vast majority of them, have the cognitive reasoning power to weigh up pros and cons. Kids don't.
indeed.

the purpose of me saying that wasn't to suggest that this isn't true-it was to highlight that there is a reason why we don't blame kids-or shouldn't blame them, when they get into situations like this.

but there are also reasons why it's important not to blame adults when they are manipulated into being abused, either. they aren't the same reasons, but they're still important.
 

Chris-duck

MyPTSD Pro
but there are also reasons why it's important not to blame adults when they are manipulated into being abused, either. they aren't the same reasons, but they're still important.
Yeah. But I guess people view shit through their own trauma lens, I can tell you a million reasons why I'm to blame for my own shit, and back it up with science if it's a particularly slow day for me. And could be hit back with a million reasons why it isn't, again, backed by a bored internet dweller with some science.

I also think there's a fine line between blaming adults for not leaving bad situations and enabling them to stay there. N I think it's much easier to overcome manipulation as an adult than grooming as a child/vulnerable adult
 

barefoot

Sponsor
Grooming is a form of manipulation.

I guess we often hear about it in relation to children and young people - kids being groomed sexually either online or in person.

But I’ve definitely heard of adults being groomed. Sometimes in the context of sexual predators grooming a child’s parents - gaining their trust and building a close relationship with them so that they are then more able to access and exploit the child.

Also, I guess some kinds of scams - someone forming a friendship/romantic relationship with someone to then use them eg for financial gain.

This may be of interest/use:

 

LittleBigFoot

Confident
So the situation I have in my head is when I was 17, I got in with this guy who was in his mid 30s. We had a strange dynamic but basically he’d supply the alcohol and what I thought was this grown up relationship and I’d supply, well, what men want. It wasn’t healthy, but I’m not sure if he’d be considered this whole grooming thing or if he was just manipulating to get what he wanted? Or just nothing and there was no abuse cause hey I got something out of it too (alcohol and feeling older cause an older man was so interested in me)?
 

internal

Sponsor
N I think it's much easier to overcome manipulation as an adult than grooming as a child/vulnerable adult
i definitely agree there. i've been in both of those places. and now i can recegnize what is happening and i know what to focus on. it is much easier for me to recegnize now than it was before-and that's a big part of the equation of manipulation: knowing that it's atually happening.

I also think there's a fine line between blaming adults for not leaving bad situations and enabling them to stay there.
agreed. i've encountered friends and things that you explain it over and over again but they just won't leave, they end up in the cycle, over and over again.

i do not blame them for what is happening-i have been that person that it was happening because i did not know how to have different kinds of reletionships.

they are not stupid and they do not deserve abuse. but at the same time you cannot keep engaging to it either because they will not listen. and short of kidnapping them to get them out of there-you are just making yourself suffer over it.

when I was 17
at 17 you aren't an adult. he was 13 years older and using you for his adventege. he was supplying you with items and treating you in "adult ways" making you feel importent and valedated. that's textbook grooming.
 

LittleBigFoot

Confident
at 17 you aren't an adult.

So this part I really really struggle with. Because this means one more birthday and suddenly I’m wise and smart and capable of decisions? Because 18 is just an arbitrary number, other countries have other numbers (UK for instance is 16 so I’m suddenly an adult there?). If we really want to get into it then no one should be making decisions until at least 25 but that’s a whole other discussion.
 
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