How Do You Eliminate Suffering?

[sun seeker]

That is probably one of the most distressing things that has been a consistent since I was a child.

Have you had PTSD since you were a child? Or if it was not diagnosed back then, looking back would you say you did?

It's an interesting question as to why some people with PTSD are still able to find interests and passions in the times when they are less symptomatic, and others are not. I totally understand and sympathize, by the way.

 

[scout86]

@sun seeker , what's "suffering", the way you're using it here? (You come up with some of the most interesting questions!)

 

[sun seeker]

Hmm.... I'd have to say you come up with interesting questions too! How about "the feeling that one's experience is intolerable, to such a degree that it overshadows the ability to access higher brain function as characterized by positive feelings, interactions, and creative thinking"? Or something along those lines. I might alter that definition as time goes on. Suffering is not the same thing as pain. It's more about how we respond to pain, physical or emotional (but I was thinking more of emotional). And maybe some other things I have not yet defined. Any help honing my definition would be much appreciated.

 

[DogwoodTree]

what, in your estimation, is the answer to eliminating suffering? Is it even possible? Or lessening it at least, if it isn't possible to eliminate it. Theories, experience, book recommendations, rants to the effect that it is impossible, all welcome.

I don't think it's possible to eliminate suffering in our current existence. I believe this existence will be replaced with an eternal one where suffering--possibly---will no longer be part of our experience. But here in this life, I think suffering is an inherent part of living.

As for this life...I believe the pursuit of happiness is futile. It's better to pursue other goals where happiness might be an appreciated byproduct, but not the goal. I think there are people who deny their experience of suffering, and avoid it at all costs...but it is very costly to avoid one's suffering. Suffering, I believe, is essential for growth. And there's too much conflict in the world to ever have a reasonable expectation of being free of suffering for any great length of time.

From my perspective, the way to manage suffering is to be able to co-exist with it. I frequently imagine what it would've been like to live through Nazi Germany, and be a Jew in a concentration camp. I've read stories of Jews who found purpose and peace in the midst of some of the greatest suffering I can even imagine. The degree to which I fear suffering is the degree to which it controls me, even when I should be "happy." By facing into it...walking through the valley of the shadow of death instead of avoiding it...I'm slowly learning that I can survive and even find moments of thriving in the midst of suffering. That doesn't mean I go beat myself up in order to increase my suffering, but I find peace in being able to sit with my suffering instead of running from it.

Dan Allender has some really good stuff about the value of suffering. His book Dead Link Removed changed the course of my whole journey. Another good one for CSA survivors, but very very very difficult to read, is The Wounded Heart.

 

[Fadeaway]

I am not sure that it is PTSD as a child, but severe developmental trauma and neglect I had in abundance.

 

[sun seeker]

I don't think it's possible to eliminate suffering in our current existence.

I am really thinking about what you say. I must say I am hoping you are wrong - not because I want you to be wrong, but I want that not to be true. But can I ask one question? Are you sure it is suffering that can't be eliminated, and not pain?

 

[sun seeker]

severe developmental trauma and neglect I had in abundance.

I see. Me too... and I could have written most of your post. So... lots of questions are arising from the first question I asked. Give me time and they might become another thread.

 

[DogwoodTree]

Are you sure it is suffering that can't be eliminated, and not pain?

Hm, that's a good point. It's difficult for me to imagine pain without suffering. I suppose, if you're able to reach a place of being in complete peace even in the face of horrible pain, then you could feasibly eliminate your suffering. But this would come from being at peace with pain (or whatever else you might be experiencing), not from eliminating or trying so hard to avoid pain.

 

[sun seeker]

But this would come from being at peace with pain (or whatever else you might be experiencing), not from eliminating or trying so hard to avoid pain.

Yes. That is (I think) one of the ideas behind mindfulness meditation. I'm no expert though. Read something just last night about how the brains of meditators change not so they block pain, but so they are less attached to it. There are two parts of the brain that don't connect in the same way most people's do. I'm not so good at remembering detail, I'll see if I can find it.

 

[Chava]

The Buddha described human life as one of suffering. Nobody really escapes it. But he had his whole theory for potential relief, so there's one option.

Others (not listed in any order of effectiveness): increase humor and joy, increase connection, benzos, accept suffering to some degree vs try to fight it or eliminate it (likely just increases it because the expectations are too high and you just won't likely avoid suffering)...so...acceptance, to a degree, especially towards things we cannot change or don't know how to change right now.

Personally, it's humbling to admit I am addicted to my suffering (though to a neatly controlled degree). I don't want to feel emotionally miserable but I seem trapped in cycles of repeating physical suffering. It's feeling good or healthy that scares the shit out of me.

 

[scout86]

the feeling that one's experience is intolerable,

That part, personally, I deal with by the way I choose to define things. If I'm alive and it's happening, it's not intolerable. My job is to find ways to tolerate it. Can I tolerate it for a minute? If I can, and I do that 10 times, I've gone 10 minutes. Granted, that's not a way to live your whole life. But it's a way to make it through a bad stretch. I try to remind myself that "this too shall pass" because, good or bad, it will. I investigate Buddhism a little at one time. There were things about it that didn't really resonate with me, but I liked the idea of noticing feelings but not getting too attached to them.

to such a degree that it overshadows the ability to access higher brain function as characterized by positive feelings, interactions, and creative thinking"?

And, it kind of seems like you answered your own question. "Don't let it do that". LOL Seriously. Some of this is a choice. Not always an EASY choice, of course, but a choice. We can choose to look for humor. We can choose to look outside ourselves. We can choose a lot of things.

But I don't know that we can eliminate suffering because we can't really control what EVERYONE feels, can we? We can do what we can do to help. We can to what we can to avoid causing hurt. But we can't control how other people feel.

I believe the pursuit of happiness is futile.

My T has asked me, a few times, if I'm "happy". He usually doesn't ask stupid questions! And, I didn't really know how to respond. I finally said that I wasn't sure but that I thought "happiness" might be over rated. He laughed. Then he agreed with me. He said that he, himself, prefers to feel like he's doing something that "matters" rather than just wanting to be "happy". Of course, there's a ton of ways of defining "happy" and I'd say he feels happy when he feels like he's doing something worthwhile. I think the pursuit of the forms of happiness other than the material ones is a better choice, but that's me. Not everyone sees it that way.

 

[void]

Okay, bear with me, I know this is an odd question to ask on a board where by definition, people are...

Four Noble Truths
1. Suffering exists
2. Suffering arises from attachment to desires
3. Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases
4. Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the Eightfold Path

This was Buddha's answer to your question.
Have you had an opportunity to learn about the Middle Way?