How do you know if you consent?

[Skywatcher]

When one is raped or otherwise sexually abused or assaulted, one reaction is to then seek sexual encounters, perhaps as a way of taking one's power back, or getting to re-experience the physically pleasurable parts that one was awakened to by passing along the acts that one has learned (e.g., in cases of child sex abuse). It's like a chain of events. Person A gets raped/abused and goes on to try to deal with the trauma or re-experience physical pleasure through more sexual activities, or becomes re-victimized again and again. How do we know when we are free of that chain?

I think if we are paying attention we can tell if we are having sex to fulfill a desire to be loved and wanted (approval seeking), out of compliance (which is not consent), or out of compulsions or attempts to alleviate anxiety from our PTSD, etc. We know that we are consenting when we examine our conscious and find that we are not doing it for any of those reasons.

Now that I've said that, I'm hard pressed to think of a reason to have sex. Perhaps for reasons similar to deciding to go for an intimate walk or conversation with another person? Like, a desire to do something intimate together. And we don't feel pressured or hurried, but there is time to plan and think ahead, and discuss and agree? When we are not moved by some fantasy, but soberly think, "yeah, that would be fun"? I know that doesn't sound exciting, but it seems the only responsible way forward.

I very much appreciate everything you wrote here and found it helpful.

 

[blackemerald1]

he didn’t think I had the legal capacity to give consent to sex,

This psydoc should know that 'consent' is essentially a legal term not a psychological one.

He says he considers you do not have the legal capacity...

Sideways are you considered so mentally unwell etc., that any consent you may give would be invalidated bc of your mental illness? That's a big thing to say.. I think I would have challenged this statement there and then.

And well I'm shaking my head at the minefield that opens up for any potential partner you might consent to have sex with... Imagine that, a person is charged with rape bc another person failed to appreciate their mental incapacity due to ptsd... aaargh! No... let's not go there!

Consent is not deemed to be given where the person giving consent is drugged, drunk, mentally incapacitated and a few other nasty things etc., but really doesn't understand what they are doing or has that capacity to decide removed from them. You know what I mean I'm sure. Talking just sex here, not medical consent, assault etc.,

I know this is a mental health forum and the lines get blurred a lot.. but I think you would understand the nature etc., of consenting to a sexual act..don't you? Do you really think that you are 'programmed' to such an extent that the ability to say yes and understand what that means or say no and understand what that means is beyond you?

Whether you should consent or really because you are not mentally incapacitated to such an extent that the legality is not in issue... agree... to sex - that's leaning more to the psychological side of things and he would be on firmer ground discussing the merits of that with you.

 

[PerfectEmpire]

Imagine that, a person is charged with rape bc another person failed to appreciate their mental incapacity due to ptsd... aaargh!

This is a really interesting hypothetical. I was just thinking about it...

Rape laws in the sample of states for which I've examined them, would probably not cover this. I don't know where a person could get charged with this. It is so hard to press charges for rape, as the legal definitions and burden of proof are so strict.

The thing with PTSD is that the partner wouldn't always be able to tell that something is wrong (as with intoxication or intellectual disability or developmental delay or a coma, etc.) and so I don't think it would hold up in criminal court, at least not where I am. I don't even think it would make it into court to begin with. The question would be, how was the perpetrator supposed to know?

Now if a partner discloses that they have prior trauma and the perpetrator somehow exploits the sufferer's vulnerability (especially in the setting of a very obvious power differential or other abuses), that would be amoral and awful and rape by a non-legal definition, but it would not necessarily meet the legal definition of rape in most places that I am aware of, and I imagine that it would be unlikely to make it into criminal court, no matter how egregious the violation. If there is any place where this would make it into criminal court and be winnable, let me know so that I can move there.

A while back now I had a pdoc who told me that he didn’t think I had the legal capacity to give consent to sex, because I was too conditioned by my past experiences to truly exercise ‘free will’ in deciding whether I consented or not. He said I needed to work on that.

This is a bit scary because any time a mental health professional tells us that we are not as autonomous as we would like to be and that we are "unwell" I strongly question it. I am especially concerned when the clinician doesn't provide a clear plan and time frame for measuring progress. This is concerning to me because comments like this one can change a patient's self-concept and that imprint can last well beyond its expiration date if there is no re-assessment and re-evaluation. I strikes me as diminishing the patient's sense of self-efficacy and power, and this is the opposite of what is needed to heal trauma. I would find it more constructive for the clinician to say, (1) Are you interested in having sex? If so, (2) How do you know if you are consenting? If patient has concerns then say, (3) Would you like to work on this? If so, (4) What are some small, achievable goals we can set for the next 6 months to work on strengthening your feeling of capacity for consent [if that is patient's stated intention]?

 

[Ronin]

IMHO if you do not have the legal capacity to consent to sex, you should also not be (legally) capable of handling your finances, making moving and the like decisions without a guardian approving it, and the like. The whole life. Not just the sex. And by that point, there should also be opinions of more docs on that (not one), they in agreement about it, AND court approving it, not just the medical body.

Aka not able to consent by reason of mental incapacity is a pretty big thing.

Difficulty establishing own boundaries / own boundaries very easily compromised by past experiences, and tendency to react strongly to triggers (or, quote conditioning / brainwashing) are different things, and more internal (and to be worked out as such) than argue shady legality, imho.

 

[Sideways]

Sideways are you considered so mentally unwell etc., that any consent you may give would be invalidated bc of your mental illness? That's a big thing to say..

Yeah, and he said it because he knew I was a lawyer and that I would understand the gravity of it. I like to think it’s no longer the case - I was very unwell at the time, and spent long periods in hospital, often on involuntary treatment orders.

@Ronin - I don’t have complete autonomy over my finances! The bulk of my money is managed by a power of attorney. I’m also not allowed more than a week’s worth of medication at a time because it’s considered that I can’t manage them safely myself.

I haven’t been on an ITO for at least a couple of years. I like to think that the situation has changed. But certainly my capacity in a number of areas has been compromised in the past, not just with consenting to sex.

It isn’t the case that someone would be charged with rape for having seemingly consensual sex with me. The mens rea wouldn’t exist.

It also isn’t the case that someone either has capacity and can manage all their affairs (legal, health, etc) or the lack capacity entirely - certainly not here. Capacity can (and often is) compromised only in certain areas depending on the situation.

 

[Sideways]

This is concerning to me because comments like this one can change a patient's self-concept and that imprint can last well beyond its expiration date if there is no re-assessment and re-evaluation.

This is exactly what he was trying to achieve at the time - he wanted to impress on me that the impact of my sexual trauma, particularly because I had Stockholm syndrome as a result of considerable and deliberate psychological conditioning, had created what was essentially an entirely deluded self-concept. He was trying to impress on me at the time just how far from healthy, rational or realistic my self-concept was at the time. I won’t go into the detail again here, but I was specifically and deliberately conditioned to believe my existence was to basically serve as God’s whore, which I continued to believe at the time he made the comment about my consent.

I did challenge him. On a regular basis. But for many years, the way I challenged him was to insist (with some vigour) that my abuser was the most generous person I’d ever known, and that I was lucky and grateful for what he’d taught me about myself. For at least 5 years, I was unable to tolerate people referring to him as a pedophile, or to what he did as ‘abuse’. My adult life prior to starting treatment I deliberately behaved in a way that I thought would make my absuer proud of me - because I was that grateful for my abuse (hence the issue with my capacity to consent- I would willingly engage in apparently consenual sex, but my goal was to fulfill my purpose as God’s whore and make my abuser proud of me).

I’ve changed a lot since then, but I still wonder about when and how we know that our consent is coming from a place of free will, and not prior abusive conditioning.

 

[Ronin]

I still wonder about when and how we know that our consent is coming from a place of free will, and not prior abusive conditioning.

Well, does that doc say the same thing to literally every abuse victim, out there, re: self concept? Because that a self concept changes, to a lesser or greater degree, because of abuse, is just soooo common. That it changed in a particular way in yours is not all that... unique? Worthy of being stamped as marking you not able to consent altogether? The same thing could be said about other sexual trauma vics, particularly CSA.

And re: free will, that could be a veeery long (philosophical) discussion, I think a personal definition of what that is is more relevant here (and objective one I am not so sure would exist.) So how do you define free will to yourself, and in which situations do you believe you are able to consent out of it?

 

[Sideways]

Well, does that doc say the same thing to literally every abuse victim, out there, re: self concept? Because that a self concept changes, to a lesser or greater degree, because of abuse, is just soooo common

I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t. And I think that was his point at the time. It is a matter of degree, and that’s relevant with capacity. Not every sexual trauma patient insists that having sex with any man who wants it is their godly purpose to make themselves sexually available to men and making their abuser proud is critical. Other sexual trauma survivors have their own issues. That specific issue happened to be mine.

And he wasn’t stating some golden legal truth, he really was just giving me his opinion, based on what he knew about me and the state of my mental health.

I don’t really want this to turn into a competition about how much people’s self-concept has been affected by their trauma. That’s really not my intention, because the issues going on for me were (and are) really specific to me. I didn’t have a ‘worse’ self-concept than other abuse victims - like all sexual trauma survivors, the way my self-concept formed was specific to me, and his treatment approach reflected that. Which is something everyone’s T should do, yeah? In my particular case, my situation was X, and my pdoc considered that it had become dangerous, was removed from reality, and “Please stop having sex...period” was something he considered to be the most pressing issues for me to establish some degree of safety.

It is certainly not the case that “If your T thinks you have the capacity to consent to sex, then your self-concept hasn’t really been effected.” That’s absolutely not the case.

I think I’ll bow out of the discussion. Not because of you @Ronin , but because I feel like this has become unhelpful and completely off track from the issue I was trying to explore. It wasn’t meant to be a thread about “Was my personal self-concept issue more dramatic than other sufferers”? I’m interested in how people know they are able to really, genuinely, freely ‘consent’, not justifying what a past pdoc said to me.

My head goes in circles with the ‘free will’ concept. I’m increasingly suspicious that it’s an ideal, rather than a realistically achievable reality.

 

[Skywatcher]

I hate and love this thread. My therapist has also mentioned Stockholm syndrome and these posts help me to not feel so alone in my struggles with challenging thoughts that I have had for a long time in regards to sexuality.

 

[PerfectEmpire]

But for many years, the way I challenged him was to insist (with some vigour) that my abuser was the most generous person I’d ever known, and that I was lucky and grateful for what he’d taught me about myself. For at least 5 years, I was unable to tolerate people referring to him as a pedophile, or to what he did as ‘abuse’. My adult life prior to starting treatment I deliberately behaved in a way that I thought would make my absuer proud of me - because I was that grateful for my abuse (hence the issue with my capacity to consent- I would willingly engage in apparently consenual sex, but my goal was to fulfill my purpose as God’s whore and make my abuser proud of me).

I’ve changed a lot since then, but I still wonder about when and how we know that our consent is coming from a place of free will, and not prior abusive conditioning.

Wow. I just want to say how amazing you are and how strong. I think the fact that you even have the self awareness now to even ask these kinds of questions might be the answer in itself.

Also, this is inspiring to read, as it shows how much we can change and grow.

My head goes in circles with the ‘free will’ concept. I’m increasingly suspicious that it’s an ideal, rather than a realistically achievable reality.

I can relate to your suspicions. Free will doesn't exist in a vacuum.

 

[EveHarrington]

Can I ask - is this because it’s a bit like “saying no isn’t really an option for me...” or something else?

I’m sorry, I realize my thinking is not in the spirit of this thread so I’ll bow out now.

 

[Ronin]

That’s really not my intention

Neither, nor the point I was aiming to make, sorry.

Just that things in abuse, in general, get rather tangled about how much we do because wanting to, and how much because of being taught what the choices are and options are (and consequences of them are) and that I don’t believe grooming of any sort takes away one’s capacity to act, in the present time (whenever the present time IS.), if out of that situation already.

As that was then. Then mindset. Then beliefs.
Now is now. A different person. With different beliefs, or understanding of them.

Finding where the obstacle is, what are the hard areas, what still lingers and how to overcome it, is a different thing to tackle. Where the work lies. Stolen choices then do not predict choices now, or for the future, though.