How do you know if you consent?

[Sideways]

@EveHarrington - hugs if that’s ok.
Feel a bit humiliated about having to explain why my pdoc raised the issue. Because I was really fked up is why. Hard issue to come at without shame rearing its head.

that I don’t believe grooming of any sort

Perhaps, and I think maybe I can hear what you’re saying despite the shame issues that have come up for me.

I was groomed. But I was also brainwashed (and that’s a term I’d rather not use), deliberately, methodically, and using a number of different established methods for achieving that.

My abuse wasn’t worse. But it was different, to a lot of other people’s experiences, in that respect. It’s detailed in my trauma diary, but I’m not going to revieit the different programming methods that were systematically used, by a person with some training in those methods, in my case.

It’s still really hard for me to be able to admit to myself “I was brainwashed”. I don’t have it in me to try and persuade people or detail those elements of my experience. I don’t know if I’m interpreting things wrong, but I’m beginning to feel like my experience is now being minimised as simply “Yeah, but most of us were groomed/conditioned/etc.”

 

[somerandomguy]

I don't know if this will make you feel better, but sex and shame go together like peanut butter and jelly (or your own metaphor of choice). Even a lot of people who are apparently untouched by serious trauma have shame issues surrounding sex. It's kind of baked into Western culture. In any case, you definitely are not the only person here who feels intense shame surrounding their sexual trauma.

 

[Ronin]

I’m beginning to feel like my experience is now being minimised

I thoroughly apologize for that, for that wasn’t my intention either.
I was hoping to cheer you up, in fact: so you feel less alone, in seeing some elements that were super accentuated in your trauma, also happen ordinarily in others or all types of trauma.

And that basics (about overcomeability, and now not being forever) are still true. Regardless of how long or how early your perp had to hurt you.

 

[Sideways]

I was hoping to cheer you up, in fact: so you feel less alone

Thank you, becoI know you probably feel like that sometimes. If you walked into a pdoc’s office and laid it all out on the table, the average pdoc isn’t going to say to someone like you, “Oh, yeah, I see this all the time!”

It’s not necessary worse. Just different.

 

[grit]

Consent, safety, love, hate etc etc all these sort of things are internalised that you only know when you have it and you know when you lack not directly but by side affects.

No one can show you truly but enough therapy, you could gain internally. However, unless you are in a relationship where there is a basic safety and love, if I were you, I would not entertain sex with anyone until I could feel confident in my selfhood and autonomy and be confident a) I could say no even if I am listened to and b) I would not cause others to cross my boundaries because I could not say no when I should and expect others to read my mind.

I only say this because it is important to think of others too in this situation. If you are not sure you are consenting, then you are also putting others in position of harming you or harming themselves. It is not just about consent anymore but it is about Do you know when YOU ARE harming or hurting others?

When you know that then you know when others are harming/hurting you too. it goes both ways. So please be careful and hope your therapist truly assist you achieving that basic level of knowing your boundaries and respecting others boundaries.

 

[Sideways]

Do you know when YOU ARE harming or hurting others?

Like, what?

Pretty sure Boss is thoroughly enjoying this arrangement. Very, very sure of that.

I don’t think running a guilt trip on me at this point is going to be particularly helpful. Thank you for offering your view though.

 

[joeylittle]

I’m interested in how people know they are able to really, genuinely, freely ‘consent’, not justifying what a past pdoc said to me.

I'm not sure this will help...I didn't start to understand the concept of getting to make a choice, when it comes to sex, until I was in a situation where I said "no". It would have been a one-night-stand sort of situation, and god knows I've had plenty of those. Everything was geared towards having sex, and then I just realized that I didn't want to, with that guy. Now, that was a normal feeling. What was different was, I said something along the lines of "this isn't going to happen - I've changed my mind". The guy was pretty angry, but it didn't make me turn back around and say "oh, OK". I just still didn't want to, and stuck to my no, and it felt really good to do that.

That was a good 25 years after my abduction.

Looking back, and writing this, I can see maybe two or three other examples of times when I let myself choose what happened next, with men. Like leaving my long term relationship, which was a solid 7 years overdue by the time I managed to do it. But when I finally did manage to say "no, I'm leaving and I'm not coming back, this is done" - it had the same kind of surprising feeling, like I had done something really new for me.

So - I started understanding free choice when I eventually was able to choose "no". That I did actually have an opinion of my own, and it was my choice whether I acted on it or not.

It's not like this created some kind of global change for me. I think it did in re: sex, specifically.

 

[Abstract]

Can totally see why this question is particularly important for you Sideways. I imagine that your t telling you what he did, although upsetting, was probably helpful. And I can see how it could be true for a period despite all your wisdom and knowledge. It would also totally not be your fault. What do you think he would say about the present situation for you in regard to this. That particular t. No pressure to answer.
I now know I have free will as I essentially don't consent. That probably isn't useful to you. Joey's post helped me clarify some of the messiness of what I was thinking. That area is a wall for me at present I'm afraid but even without the brainwashing or religious abuse you experienced I do know I was taught to have no boundaries in a self decision sense and so it never really occurred to me most of the time for a lot of my life. So legally and morally, technically, I was consenting in situations(for me) but emotionally and developmentally I wasn't really making decisions. There wasn't a sense of autonomy there as I hadn't been allowed that. Not in a way that is implied to us when we think of the word. A few things minimised the amount of stuff that happened to me as a result of that inability and am grateful for that.

But I have experienced true consenting in the way I think you are referring to and I think it comes from a place where being taken over by the persons agenda isn't involved. That we want something for us. Listening to the other is fine but we are firmly connected and honour what we want. And were there is a proper connection to self. We don't loose site of us. I think the self thing is key.

Not saying other situations wouldn't legally or morally be considered consent. Just that they maybe aren't necessarily coming from an authentic place, and that when we have a past, it isnt internally consent.

For me what brought me there was a period of training myself in assertiveness, boundaries, particularly with my family, relentlessly forcing myself to keep practicing putting boundaries down and trying to connect with I felt. To have and know a me. And it brought me to a place where any ambigiuity on what I wanted on my part when it came to this subject was something I could no longer swallow and feel sane. I had to listen to myself and protect myself. It really is no longer something I can do. Any sense of that being impinged fries my mind immediately. But maybe not going there at all is again is still partially a sign that I don't have confidence managing the consent issue.

But to answer you question on a broader philosophical level; yes, I think consent in the way I think you mean is possible and happens.

 

[mumstheword]

For me, it was a combination of; my body telling me I wanted to and the development of a truly moral and respectful relationship.

To be explicit, I had pornographic fantasies running day and night, waking or sleeping, about the person, for a couple of weeks, and then I expressed to that person my feelings, and, although they had reciprocal feelings, they were reluctant to act on them, due to their own trauma history.


This bodily attraction continued, relentlessly, I was in full limerance/lust mode for many, many weeks (months?) before it was finally acted on. On top of that, this person, clearly, cared about me, as a person, as a friend, independant of any sexual agenda, and still does.

So, for the first time, ever, I KNOW that I gave full consent, in fact I pursued, it was a reversal of the traditional gender roles, which is unusual, but in our case, it worked.

For the first thirty seven years of my life, consent is a grey area, in hindsight. There were two clear cut rapes and the rest were the result of my early training/abuse/neglect and (I now know) due to my impaired social/neural/cognitive function due to my high functioning Autism plus complex trauma, that made me susceptible to coersive and opportunistic but morally dubious predatory sex.

I suspect most of it was kind of pedophilic, as I (again, autism exacerbated) took a very long time to emotionally and mentally mature and heal enough to be, in reality, a mature consenting adult. Nearly all the people who had sex with me, were much, much older than me, as well.

Consent involves time, the time to explore feelings, and the relationship of two individuals, I reckon, and clear communication, if not an actual YES, then a bodily YES as well as trust, safety, non-cohersion and mutual respect.

Fly-by-night, hasty, stranger sex, is too much of a grey area, for me to comment on, all mine has been reactive, unhinged, trauma response sex, so, all I can say is, for me, consentual sex is part of a committed and loving, long term friendship that involves ongoing attraction, compatability, support and lots of communication and trust.

 

[Mach123]

There is a whole lot going on here! I want your attention, love, approval. What am I willing to give? If I can't get your attention on the basis of my worth I can trade sex for it. (That's not my worth?) Or I can act up and get negative attention. (Is there a difference?) Have you ever noticed the problem people take up all the attention? I'm still mad that I can't be a promiscuous teenage girl. Promiscuous girls get a lot of attention. But I wanted attention from girls. It was awful. I still have that conflict.
The point about free will is interesting beyond anything and has been debated by religious scholars for millennia. (Do we choose God or does He choose us?). Is there any free will? I think no there isn't. It's comforting for me. It doesn't stop me from being obsessive about what happened or what might but as I've gotten older it occurs to me more and more that resistance is futile. What happens happens. You could get run over and killed today and you have no control over that. How could you? But we behave like we are going to live forever. What's the difference between that and I'm going to keep going over so and sos and having sex or I'm not going to overeat today? IDK.

 

[scout86]

I think there are different aspects to "consent". The two people involved aren't necessarily experiencing the same feelings. And, because mind reading is a rare skill, I think they can legitimately not be the same page.

My T said something the other day that might be relevant though. He said, "You can't make a good deal with a bad person." We were actually talking about something else, but I've been noticing how this idea applies to a lot of things.

Would you agree that, best case, sex involves mutual respect and consideration? In that case, I think it's good to avoid "the appearance of consent" until you're sure who you're dealing with.

And THAT, it seems to me, is pretty complicated. (Which is why it's hard to work out and takes a long time sometimes).

 

[Muttly]

My therapist said the same thing to me. She knew what she was saying, the legal ramifications, was very intentional about it and did it to get my attention. It worked. When sex is wanted by someone with me, an alter comes out. I did not have any control of that, at the time time my therapist made her statement. As @Sideways has mentioned, everyone's trauma is different. For some, they may be functioning great in life but be incapable of handling a doctor's appointment. That doesn't mean that they aren't capable in other areas. It doesn't mean there trauma is more or less than others and if a therapist told their client they shouldn't make medical decisions without the support of a trusted ally, that others of with PTSD should discount or make generalized statements about all people with PTSD and doctors.

For me, the alter that comes out when sex is wanted has the job to comply. That alter's job is to give sex. I see a lot of people talking about having sex to seek out love and relations. @Sideways didn't mention that as the reason they might have sex so we can't assume that for them. For my alter, it's not about that. It's just her purpose. It's what she was taught she had to do. There is no possibility of saying no. Not only is she supposed to do it, she is supposed to be aroused by it. So judging by the (stupid) body's response is not helpful. The body will get excited. It's been programmed. The more awful it is, the more the body will respond, the more she is suspected to be ... encouraging what is happening.

As to how to know if I am giving consent? Ummm.... nope, don't have a good answer. I put all the blame on the alter I mentioned but I guess we believe a lot of what she does.