How do you know if you consent?

[Sideways]

A while back now I had a pdoc who told me that he didn’t think I had the legal capacity to give consent to sex, because I was too conditioned by my past experiences to truly exercise ‘free will’ in deciding whether I consented or not. He said I needed to work on that.

Been working in that for years.

So, how do you know whether you’re consenting to something because you’re exercising your free will in a rational way? How do you tell when it’s your free will making decisions for you, and not what your abuse programmed you to do/think?

What happens when it’s not as simple as “do I want to”, because what you ‘think’ you want is simply what you’ve been programmed or conditioned to believe/think?

 

[EveHarrington]

Good question.

I wonder if I’ve ever truly consented.

I mean part of me always thinks I must do what other people want in order to keep them happy so that they like me and don’t walk away.

 

[ILoveLife]

How do you tell when it’s your free will making decisions for you, and not what your abuse programmed you to do/think?

You can switch the "abuse programming" to "healing programming".
In abuse programming, you "accept" harm being done to you out of not having any other choice, or not seeing the choices in front of you.
In healing programming, you do what's best for yourself.
If it was this easy, none of us would be retraumatized ever, though.
Takes baby steps and not jumping in blindly to situations, clear head (which is difficult as hell, to be honest), and knowing yourself well to understand where you want to go, are willing to accept. And ability to see the choices in front of you.

My "consent" or lack of was a survival issue. Further revictimizations were survival issues as well.

Sometimes I did see the choices, sometimes I did choose them, but life didn't miraculously get better due to making the correct choice. Other issues appeared and I dealt poorly with them too.
So, being able to see the whole picture and acting in a way that won't harm you not always protects you from further harm either.

It's really hard, but sometimes simply bad shit happens to good people. Or even more accurately, shit happens to people.

How you react to the shit happening, that's another conversation.

What happens when it’s not as simple as “do I want to”, because what you ‘think’ you want is simply what you’ve been programmed or conditioned to believe/think?

This will always be true, regardless of circunstance. Good things, bad things, neutral things, you'll act according to your life's lessons so far.
Some might be distortions, therapy and this site are helpful for that true, and it takes a shitload of strenght and willpower to go against what you were taught to believe.

I know I want certain things, and I know I do not want others.
I know I want love, and I know I don't want more pain.
Both of these things are conditionings.

 

[ILoveLife]

I just realized survival is also doing what's best for yourself... so yeah. :meh:
Take from all that above what fits :)

 

[The Albatross]

If unsure of ability to consent... perhaps being sexually active could be tabled until the matter is clarified in therapy. You share you've been working on it for years for instance though do not share what has been worked through about this matter.

What avenue does your shrink say is necessary to give you clarity on this?

 

[Sideways]

You share you've been working on it for years for instance though do not share what has been worked through about this matter.

I think a lot of the work I’ve done on shame and self-worth are intended to have an impact on this (as well as a lot of other things). Like, making decisions for myself from a place of having self-worth. I think (not actually sure) that my current T believes that shame from our trauma plays too much of a part in the decisions I make for myself...?

I’ve asked my current T about whether she thinks I have capacity to give consent to sex, but she’s much less inclined to give me direct instructions like “No, so really you should abstain till that changes”. She’s done a lot of work with me on the stockholm syndrome I had, which has allowed some of the work on my self-concept and self-worth to sink in.

But that still leaves me unsure. And I can’t help wondering that, apart from a few extremely enlightened super-humans, maybe the idea of ‘free will’ is a bit of a sham. Surely our decisions will always be based on “this is what I know about life thus far...”.

Consent is meant to be a cut and dried case of “yes or no”. I guess our reasons for saying yes change as we recover, and maybe that’s why we have to relearn so much stuff.

 

[Sideways]

I wonder if I’ve ever truly consented.

Can I ask - is this because it’s a bit like “saying no isn’t really an option for me...” or something else?

 

[somerandomguy]

Consent is meant to be a cut and dried case of “yes or no”.

Perhaps it's meant to be, but it rarely, if ever, actually is - especially among people like us who have been sexually abused.

I believe that if people had to be "100% yes" before having sex, sex would be incredibly rare.

Also, from what I'm aware, some people have reactive sex drives, and aren't ever into it before they actually start having it.

I'm struggling with issues around sex (as always), so maybe I'm completely incorrect about this, however.

 

[Sideways]

I'm struggling with issues around sex

This neatly sums up my entire existence atm, so I totally hear you.

We’ll get there. Don’t know how long it takes, but we will get there:)

 

[Skywatcher]

I have been thinking about this lately. In college, I made out with a lot of guys. I think it was actually more of a non-conscious control thing. I’ll do everything but intercourse and see if he will stop. The terminology back then may have been a cock tease... but orgasms were had, so maybe not. It was a free for all of non-intimate sexual stuff. It amazes me how many guys are not rapists! They all stopped and if they tried coercion type messaging, they still stopped if I said no. Only one guy was more persistent and that situation went so far and then blank. Now I’m married, have ptsd from my past and have a whole mess of problems in my mind with sex, flashbacks, needing childhood trauma to be in the mental mix. I want to fix it.

Anyway, do you like sex? Do you like how you feel afterwards? Do you have a commited partner? I think that taking a liberal view on sex won’t get you what you need, to feel valued and loved. I know that screwing around with barely known guys just made me feel like the cheap whore that my abusers programmed me to believe I was and I falsely convinced myself that I was seeking love. And I like sex... that is not what the issue is, it’s about self respect and taking time to know someone that will love, respect and work with you.

 

[PerfectEmpire]

I'm 9.5 months without any interpersonal sexual activity of any kind, by choice. I feel better. A little lonely without the joy and excitement of a lover, but far better still.

I realize that this is the longest I've been without sex since I was raped at 16. It's been like a chain of events ever since, like a candle lighting another candle and another candle, passing on the trauma, giving and receiving it. It feels good to take a break the chain, and make a rest between the notes, enough rest to start a whole new song. I want to start over. If I bring sex back into my life, I want it to be something I choose. I did not get to choose to become sexually active or not, and with a long enough time without sex, I will get to redefine my life and identity. I may never bring it back into my life, as the risks outweigh the benefits in my view.

Anyway, do you like sex? Do you like how you feel afterwards? Do you have a commited partner? I think that taking a liberal view on sex won’t get you what you need, to feel valued and loved. I know that screwing around with barely known guys just made me feel like the cheap whore that my abusers programmed me to believe I was and I falsely convinced myself that I was seeking love. And I like sex... that is not what the issue is, it’s about self respect and taking time to know someone that will love, respect and work with you.

I think I'm in a place where I loathe sex, even though I always liked it physically. Even with a committed partner. I just renounced it as it makes me too upset after what's happened to me. I will never let myself be that close to a human being again, and I will never objectify another person in that way as was done to me. Never.

I agree that a liberal view on sex won't get a person what they need to feel valued and loved. I don't even think sex will ever get a person to feel valued and loved. Feeling valued and loved is about context, accountability, mindfulness, patience, responsibility, intimacy (which is not made during sex, but around it) and really seeing and respecting the solitude of each other.

Self respect and being valued as a person not an object are why I abhor the animalistic act of sex at this time. I absolutely cannot relate, and couldn't, to the notion that sex is some grand, wonderful, connecting thing that we all do. I can see how people might be able to see it that way when they have no sexual trauma, but I don't know how anybody gets through this life without sexual trauma; I just can't imagine it, it's all I've known. Every sexual healing book for sex abuse that I have read says that my mindset is a product of the sexual violence in my history. But I don't know that I agree that my perspectives are not reality. I mean, look around... Sex is typically materialistic, shallow, degrading and objectifying, and people use it to manipulate and control each other...and use each other like toys. It's a tool for the sick and evil. I want to be a nun. FML.

If anybody has ever found a way out, please let me know. Because I've been lost for most of my life. What is sex? Why bother to have it? How is it for people who haven't been sexually traumatized? Why do they do it, and how do they relate to it? Maybe they keep telling me (see above paragraph) but it's so foreign it doesn't register? I don't even know if I want to heal because I don't even know why it's worth it, as I can't even conceive of what I must be missing. Some people tell me they think it's sad. I think if they felt even one thousandth of the fear I experience, they would be celibate too.

 

[PerfectEmpire]

So, how do you know whether you’re consenting to something because you’re exercising your free will in a rational way? How do you tell when it’s your free will making decisions for you, and not what your abuse programmed you to do/think?

What happens when it’s not as simple as “do I want to”, because what you ‘think’ you want is simply what you’ve been programmed or conditioned to believe/think?

When one is raped or otherwise sexually abused or assaulted, one reaction is to then seek sexual encounters, perhaps as a way of taking one's power back, or getting to re-experience the physically pleasurable parts that one was awakened to by passing along the acts that one has learned (e.g., in cases of child sex abuse). It's like a chain of events. Person A gets raped/abused and goes on to try to deal with the trauma or re-experience physical pleasure through more sexual activities, or becomes re-victimized again and again. How do we know when we are free of that chain?

I think if we are paying attention we can tell if we are having sex to fulfill a desire to be loved and wanted (approval seeking), out of compliance (which is not consent), or out of compulsions or attempts to alleviate anxiety from our PTSD, etc. We know that we are consenting when we examine our conscious and find that we are not doing it for any of those reasons.

Now that I've said that, I'm hard pressed to think of a reason to have sex. Perhaps for reasons similar to deciding to go for an intimate walk or conversation with another person? Like, a desire to do something intimate together. And we don't feel pressured or hurried, but there is time to plan and think ahead, and discuss and agree? When we are not moved by some fantasy, but soberly think, "yeah, that would be fun"? I know that doesn't sound exciting, but it seems the only responsible way forward.