How Do You Typically Feel When You Leave A Session?

[Abstract]

With struggling with Theory Of Mind due to the AS, how hard is it for you to accept that someone may genuinely feel differently about you than you perceive them to? I don't mean emotionally or in a connection sense and rather mean cognitively or theoretically.

 

[DogwoodTree]

how hard is it for you to accept that someone may genuinely feel differently about you than you perceive them to? I don't mean emotionally or in a connection sense and rather mean cognitively or theoretically.

Hm, well, I've studied the Myers-Briggs personality types in depth for the past couple of years, and that's been incredibly insightful to realize that different people think and experience the world so differently. I had no idea. So I'm learning to accept that people's internal thought experiences can certainly be very different than mine: the ways people gather information, what they do with that information, how they process it and see connections between ideas and draw conclusions. The human mind has fascinated me as long as I can remember, and learning how much variation there can be even among "normal" people has really been enlightening.

It's also helped to explore my MBTI type vs. T's MBTI type (and DH's, and my mom's, and my kids'...). I'm an INTP. T is an ENFP. I love ENFPs...they're fascinating to watch. When there's an ENFP around, I just want to sit and watch them interact with people because they're so amazing at it, and yet so thoughtful and genuine and creative and even a little reserved and mysterious, all at the same time. They're not flamboyant extroverts...they're way more intuitive and idea-driven than that.

T and I share extroverted intuition in our top two functions, so we both enjoy discussing ideas and novel perspectives and insights. But he's an extroverted feeler, and I'm an introverted thinker. So I accept that he naturally enjoys people more than I do, and that he naturally attracts people more easily than I do. But ENFPs aren't typically attracted to INTPs, based on what I've read. So that makes it difficult to believe that he actually enjoys being with me, especially when factoring in the AS. I don't exhibit the kinds of traits that ENFPs typically admire, so I'm pretty sure he's having to impose some self-discipline in order to find things in me that he can admire. I'm sure he has to do this for many of his clients since the best Ts know to find things in their clients that they like in order to work well with them. The fact that it has to be more forced specific to me (because of personality criss-crossing and because of AS issues and because of trauma/attachment/codependent issues...three strikes) than it is natural and easy, makes it come across to me as being less genuine and less relevant.

At the same time, he's said that in his non-professional world, he is generally drawn to people who are "broken" and real with themselves and recognize their own weaknesses and honestly evaluate their own assumptions. He's also talked about how he's drawn to strength and rugged individualism and authenticity. I have some of those characteristics in my own aspie sort of way, but I'm still not convinced that, if we had known each other outside of a therapy relationship, he would actually want to be around me. It seems his admiration of me is more fabricated than that. And maybe that's a typical aspie shortsightedness...this total commitment to raw truth rather than being able or willing to accept something generated beyond raw truth. Does that make sense at all?

However, it's one thing to fantasize that my T actually-likes-me-and-would-like-me-even-if-he-wasn't-my-therapist. But then I look around at other people to see if I can establish a pattern to support his stated feelings towards me. Am I actually likable when people have a choice on whether to be with me or not? And the fact is, not many people are willing to tolerate me or even to talk to me especially if I'm allowing aspie traits to surface at all (whether on purpose or not). I've tried many, many times over the years to establish friendships with people. But I keep screwing it up somehow. We recently changed churches, and one of the reasons was because I had failed at making friends at the old church. I had tried, and put a great deal of time into it, and some people there said they considered me to be their friend. But no one treated me like a friend...more just an acquaintance they would say hi to if we crossed paths. They would respond if I emailed them, but they never reached out to me, even if I left them alone and waited a long time for them to feel like they might want to reconnect. Nothing I did worked. Everything just pushed people away. It got so weird that people were treating my kids as if something was wrong with them, too, and I decided this wasn't acceptable.

So now at our new church, I'm trying not to screw things up. I'm not there for my own social needs--I'm there for my kids to have time with other kids. I'm trying to hook up with some groups and service teams and stuff so that I can be involved, but I'm not talking to people about my background or trying to spend time with them outside of church activities or emailing them about personal stuff at all or any of the other things I've done in the past to try to establish friendships. Because by and large, 99% of the time, people don't like the real me...evidenced by their distancing themselves from me.

So yes, it's possible that someone feels differently than I perceive them to. But the evidence typically doesn't support that they like me...the real me, the screwed-up me. Healthy people certainly don't seek out time with me. They know better. Their radars are working well, and I set off their red flags, no matter how hard I try to get healthier.

I really need to be around healthy people as role models, but I haven't figured out yet how to get close enough for a long enough period of time to pick up their behavior patterns. And I don't blame them. I wouldn't want to be around me, either. Is that a theory of mind deficit, or empathy? I'm not sure.

 

[DogwoodTree]

Its quite probable you have both aspects of this going on at the same time.

That's what the clinician who dx'd me believed, too. They each complicate the other. In some ways, the AS gives me coping tools other PTSD people don't have, but one of the major drawbacks is that it's terribly difficult to know what can be addressed and resolved in therapy, and what can't.

there must be some sort of desire for connection (of some sort). If you had to guess then what would that look like? Is it more about knowing that others are doing things differently and feeling you should be doing it too or is it more a sense of missing something yourself?

If I could get rid of the desire for connection, I might actually feel a lot better...though it would be hellish for the people around me, and I don't want to do that to people.

I think it's more a sense of missing out on something. Walking through church this morning...people are enjoying each other. Maybe some of the smiles are faked due to background issues, but for the most part, people get together with other people because they like it. I see pictures on Facebook of people hanging out together, going on vacations together, having parties together (mostly their kids' birthday parties at this point in life, lol), taking selfies together. They all seem to enjoy it. I know those things aren't happening all the time for these people, but for me...it's pretty much never. I do things with my DH where we're working hard to figure out how to make this work now that we know more about what I'm dealing with. But it's nothing like the easy-going, comfortable, fulfilling good times it seems other people have. And with other people besides DH, it's not even close to that. The emotions and the sensory defensiveness and the overwhelming data processing and the constant sense of failure are the sum totality of my experience when being around other people.

I think it may be worthwhile just seeing it as a language thing as apposed to lack of authenticity. When we aren't speaking our own language it is hard work and one can't relax in the same way as if we are, It sounds like you never have that respite of just relaxing into your own language. In certain ways I feel that to an extent but what are describing sounds exhausting.

Yes, this perspective has helped some...maybe more than just a language level, maybe more a full-cultural level. Even among other aspies it's exhausting because we've each developed our own internal culture that isn't connected to the outside world.

I can accept, eventually, sometimes, that this is just what I have to deal with. But it's still exhausting, and lonely. And that loneliness at times is simply unbearable. So back to my original question, is that what I need to accept about therapy going forward...that I might never, on a regular basis, feel better leaving than when I went in to a session?

I wonder if you are placing to much emphasis on feeling and believing what he says rather than just accepting that it is a symptom that you can't. I'm assuming you could accept the concept and I can't see why that wouldn't start helping you in time.

I determine how to interact with a person based on what I believe they're thinking/feeling about me...how do I learn to "fly blind" and act as if something is true that isn't evidenced by the data in front of me? Doesn't that require a level of dissociation, like when I was trying to believe that family members loved me even as they mistreated and abused me?

 

[scout86]

. I don't typically experience the appropriate emotions during a conversation with someone.

Who gets to decide what's "appropriate"? It seems to me that what ever you feel is appropriate for you and it's not fair for anyone one else to get to decide what yu should feel. Even if they don't like it or find it confusing. (But I totally understand wanting behave in a way that other people find to be "right")

 

[DogwoodTree]

Who gets to decide what's "appropriate"? It seems to me that what ever you feel is appropriate for you...

Well, the culture I guess...majority vote, or maybe just "here are some options, take your pick, but nothing else will make sense to anyone else."

Seriously, too much emotional misalignment with the other people in the conversation causes problems, consistently. I have to pay close attention and read people's responses to know which emotions are acceptable to express at that time. I've gotten good enough that I can identify when other people are expressing emotions outside of those guidelines, but not good enough to know when it's okay or when it's not okay to emote outside those lines, or how people decide to do that.

It totally screwed up my system to start working with a T, though, because he wouldn't give the normal indicators of which emotions were expected. So now I mostly just end up emotionally flat in our conversations...if he's not expecting a particular emotion, then usually I don't bother to create one. That doesn't mean I don't feel emotions...I do. But I can't express them in the moment like that, because I can't identify them that quickly, and oftentimes I keep them so deeply buried that I don't even know they're there until after I leave. It's frustrating (and yes, T and I have talked about it).

 

[scout86]

I have to pay close attention and read people's responses to know which emotions are acceptable to express at that time

I'm a bit in awe of the ability to do that. I can't even imagine being able to read and interpret people's responses that well or that accurately.

That doesn't mean I don't feel emotions...I do. But I can't express them in the moment like that, because I can't identify them that quickly,

So, you have to be able to identify them before you can express them? (Serious question.) I have trouble identifying them. If I'm going to express a feeling, I usually don't take the time to identify it before expressing it. If I take the time to do that, it would be too late, if that makes any sense.

and oftentimes I keep them so deeply buried that I don't even know they're there until after I leave.

I do that a lot too. Sending an email after I get home that begins with "I was thinking about this on the way home and......." is pretty common. My T doesn't seem to think there's anything wrong with that. (Maybe there is?) One of the things he's said is that, because my feelings didn't count for much when I was growing up, I didn't bother to learn to recognize them. In fact, life was easier if I didn't have feelings, so I never learned to pay much attention to them. (My mother was also probably suffering from NPD and maybe had some borderline type stuff going on too. No WAY was she ever going to see a therapist, so it's hard to know.)

 

[DogwoodTree]

I'm a bit in awe of the ability to do that. I can't even imagine being able to read and interpret people's responses that well or that accurately.

Mostly it's just mirroring their emotional behaviors back to them. And sometimes it's, instead, compensating for their negative emotions by trying to counter their bad feelings with positivity, which I realize is super unhealthy. But that's the way I was raised, and I learned it well. I still do it with my DH, and catch myself, and try to talk myself out of it. We've been working on this in therapy for several months now.

So, you have to be able to identify them before you can express them? (Serious question.)

I wasn't allowed to express emotions growing up (except for basic, positive ones, which I didn't like expressing in response to demands). It was too destabilizing for the family system if I had emotions. So I never learned to express emotions naturally, and part of that might be the AS, too.

When I was about 13, I fell and broke my arm...like seriously, broke both bones in half and my arm was bent at a 90-degree angle halfway between the wrist and elbow. I picked it up and walked to where my mom was visiting her lover about a half mile away. They drove me to the hospital where I needed surgery to reset it and was hospitalized for a couple of days. Not once did I cry. Not a tear. Not a whimper. Nothing. I didn't even think to cry. I probably couldn't have cried even if I realized I was supposed to. What scared me more was my mom's panicked look--I hated that I was requiring attention and scaring her. And then in the hospital I hated being dependent on people to help me go to the bathroom--I wouldn't let the nurse stay in the bathroom with me, and I wouldn't let them give me a bath at all. I sat in bed in my hospital room for two days and tried not to ask for anything or bother anyone, unless the swelling and pain got so bad that I needed medicine for it.

About the only emotion that leaks out without my filtering it is anger or anxiety, and I've worked really hard to learn to manage those.

I'm slowly learning to let other emotions out more fluidly, but mostly the only real expression I have is putting words to what I feel, which is a terribly inadequate expressive medium for deep emotions. There's such a huge rift between my inner and outer worlds. It's more like I have to synthesize a replica of the emotions I feel, rather than expressing the actual emotions from within, and that requires identifying them first. It also feels very fake.

One of the things he's said is that, because my feelings didn't count for much when I was growing up, I didn't bother to learn to recognize them. In fact, life was easier if I didn't have feelings, so I never learned to pay much attention to them.

Yep, that's pretty much it. My emotions were a threat to the family's well-being, so I basically stopped having them except way deep inside where they wouldn't bother anyone. Now I don't know how to get them out, and even when I do manage to expose them, it's disruptive and painful, not healing.

 

[DogwoodTree]

If I'm going to express a feeling, I usually don't take the time to identify it before expressing it.

How do you know how to express it if you haven't identified it yet? How do you know whether to laugh or cry or yell or whatever?

 

[sun seeker]

What gets triggered is my sense of loneliness and isolation. I see him sitting there across from me, and he feels so far away. No matter how he acts towards me, I don't feel like he really sees me, even though he's very attentive. I get more and more self-conscious, and feel completely alone inside myself, and can't think of any way to bridge the abyss between us.

And this isn't just in therapy--it's all the time, with everyone. Most of the time, I can convince myself I don't want connection anyway, so I can live with it okay. But in therapy, it's like putting a huge buffet in front of someone who hasn't had a decent meal in months, and telling them they can't have any of it. It hurts so bad.

My guess would be one of the attachment styles inherent in developmental trauma. If I were you, that - what you describe above - would be the main thing I would focus on in therapy before anything else. My immediate thought is "what if you moved your chair a little closer?" But I don't know you, it's just what comes to mind. But what you are describing seems like it is clamouring for attention while you focus on other things, and working on attachment is something therapists are trained in - or should be, I don't know about yours specifically. I would definitely bring this up and see what he has to say. To use your own analogy, there is a buffet spread out in front of you while you try to focus on stuff in the next room.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I always feel very worn out!

 

[scout86]

Still haven't figured out how to quote from this phone. But how do I know how to express an emotion without identifying it.... That's a really good question. Maybe I don't know. But I also often don't know, or recognize, emotions. (I recognize anger & fear pretty well too.) This is even more complicated than I realized. I've actually been using the emoticons here as a kind of cheat sheet. (Probably shouldn't admit that!)

On your original question, when il leave a session, sometimes I'm scared, sometimes confused, sometimes stupid, sometimes like a failure, and lots of times I don't know until I sort things out on the way home. Therapy often feels kind of dangerous to me and I'm too busy playing defense to think about stuff like feelings until I'm somewhere safer.

 

[DogwoodTree]

My immediate thought is "what if you moved your chair a little closer?"

I actually feel closer to people when I'm not around them. Being physically close doesn't feel comforting. Hm.

But what you are describing seems like it is clamouring for attention while you focus on other things... I would definitely bring this up and see what he has to say.

We've talked about it a lot, actually...that exact metaphor as well as others. He seems determined to make sure I don't become dependent on him...that I'm empowered through this recovery process rather than seeing him as the source of my solutions, stability, or comfort. In some ways, this works very well for me and I can see this clearly more often than not now. And even regarding these attachment issues--there are times where I can see the wisdom in his approach even in this. It becomes less of an "attachment" issue and more of a "healthy choosing of each other" situation, which I can then apply in any adult relationship...adult to adult.

I don't know how to explain it well yet. I've still got so much to learn. I feel like shit walking out of my sessions, and it takes a few hours to a few days to work through that. But eventually, I come back out on top where I can see again that whatever it is I think I want out of "connection" with my T, it's not what's healthy or realistic. The cartoony image I have in my mind of what connection is...that's not what it really is supposed to be in a healthy relationship. He holds those boundaries, and through repeated exposure to good boundaries even if I'm falling into the emotional black pit, I'm slowly realigning my expectations of relationships to something that is much more functional and healthy and productive. And this helps me find within myself the functional adult that I can be...that "true self."

Therapy often feels kind of dangerous to me and I'm too busy playing defense to think about stuff like feelings until I'm somewhere safer.

Don't answer if this is digging too much...

Can you describe what it is about therapy that feels so dangerous?

I've had the same thought...that my T and therapy itself feel very scary, but I can't put my finger on what it is about them that's scary. He doesn't threaten me at all, he's not manipulative, he's maybe even too accepting (sometimes I wish he would just point out the crap I keep putting on the table instead of validating my feelings about it, you know?). He doesn't touch me, he doesn't push me on anything I don't want to talk about, he follows my lead if I indicate what I do want to talk about. He's doing things right. Why does it scare me to be in the same room with him?

I think what bothers me the most, and I don't know if this applies to you or not, but what feels so uncomfortable in that room is me, not him. It's who I become when I'm face to face with him. Most of the time with most people, I can be fairly invisible, sometimes even without meaning to. Like when trying to order coffee yesterday, and the lady walked away from the register to go clean something once it was finally my turn after people kept stepping in front of me. It was like I didn't even exist. But in therapy, I exist, and that scares the hell out of me.