Relationship Husband asked for divorce while deployed, unsure how to proceed.

I just wanted to update this. He eventually did answer and just said "it's fine, we'll talk about it when I'm not busy" and that was all I got. I'm trying not to read into it or spiral.
Hi, I'm new here as well: just wanted to reach out and say I hope things are getting better - I know how hard it is to wait and not let your brain go into a spin and drive you crazy. I don't at all know how to deal with it: I do know that with my partner, the thing I've worked out is that when he's gone he's gone. And I used to think that he could answer me, but chose not to, which was really hurtful, but I think (hard to tell 100% because of the not being able to talk about it!!!) that when he's in a really bad place he can't answer me: even if he wants to; the person I know is trapped inside a disassociation bubble. I'm choosing to believe as much for now, and it does help. He has come back every time, but of course every time I think - what if this is the time he doesn't?

I think the only answer is time, but I'm sending good wishes your way and hope that time moves quickly and that things will work out. I don't know about for you, but for me, finding this forum and that I'm not the only one going through this, has been really helpful, because it can be so horribly isolating.
 
Hi, I'm new here as well: just wanted to reach out and say I hope things are getting better - I know how hard it is to wait and not let your brain go into a spin and drive you crazy. I don't at all know how to deal with it: I do know that with my partner, the thing I've worked out is that when he's gone he's gone. And I used to think that he could answer me, but chose not to, which was really hurtful, but I think (hard to tell 100% because of the not being able to talk about it!!!) that when he's in a really bad place he can't answer me: even if he wants to; the person I know is trapped inside a disassociation bubble. I'm choosing to believe as much for now, and it does help. He has come back every time, but of course every time I think - what if this is the time he doesn't?

I think the only answer is time, but I'm sending good wishes your way and hope that time moves quickly and that things will work out. I don't know about for you, but for me, finding this forum and that I'm not the only one going through this, has been really helpful, because it can be so horribly isolating.
Hey, thanks for the reply. Unfortunately things don't really seem to be going well.

I thought we were going to wait until he came home before he made any decisions about divorce, but after a weird misunderstanding, he blindsided me that he was serving me papers anyway and he also assumed I had cheated and a myriad of other things that aren't true in any way.

It hurt me deeply that he would tell someone I cheated; I didn't, never would, and he knows that, but he also never bothered to confront me about it? He assumed and I think he was just using it as a further excuse to try and shut me out. This was all based on him seeing my phone in a location he didn't recognize. He didn't ask me where I was at, I would've told him and I leave my data on PURPOSEFULLY so he can see where I'm at. A person who was staying in his barracks told him it looked like that was what I was doing and put the thought in his head and it spiraled.

Either way. He said he wants to reset, that he wants to start over and he wants to be alone. I respect that. He's grappling with some other things about himself that maybe he DOES need to work through alone, but I still didn't understand why he thought we HAD to divorce right now. At first, he was willing to let me wait until he gets home before I sign. Now, he wants me to do it "so I don't drag it out" when he comes back. But this feels so bad. I feel like he reverse dear-John'd me and I'm hurting so bad. I won't pretend we were sunshine and daisies before, but I'm so wounded to think that he's made up his mind without me. I don't want to sign. We only have two months to go before he's home and can get help here. I don't understand why he thinks this is going to help, but I also don't want to pressure him any more than he already is and I feel like there's no right move. I feel cornered.

I understand he needs me now as a friend more than a spouse in a way, and I can respect that. But I just feel like signing these papers is a huge mistake and I don't want to do it. I also don't want to NOT sign them and force him into hurting even more or stress him out. He wants a "reset" because he doesn't know what he wants with his future, he said he might want to go to school or maybe move and that he can't afford to have another person with him while he works himself out of debt. That part doesn't make sense to me, I know I work part time now but I don't know why he thinks I won't get a different job or work or do whatever he needs. Why we can't do this together like we always have. Being married to me feels like pressure or responsibility to him in some way that I think I can grasp at least a little bit. He said I'm not a burden. But he just desperately wants to be alone in every sense.

I made it abundantly clear that I would even give him space when he comes back, that he could be alone and disappear to wherever he wanted and I would wait for him. I guess he just thinks that isn't enough. There isn't anyone he's seeing, either, before anyone jumps to that conclusion.

I feel terrible like I put my foot in my mouth or went on for too long bc I let my feelings spill while we were on the phone, I told him how much I love him and how bad I don't want to just end our relationship like this. And I know he was tired, but eventually his response was "I just want to be alone" and I could tell he was crying and upset. I've spent all this time keeping my feelings to myself but now I feel like a terrible person bc I'm scared I overwhelmed him even more. I didn't yell or talk over him. I just kind of rambled with him.

He said he's giving me everything and that it's a no-fault. I don't want everything. I just want him, even if it's as a friend. I wish I had better news. I have no idea what to do, the lawyer or attourney or whatever hasn't contacted me yet and I'm in agony trying to understand what to say or do. I have no one. His family doesn't understand and mine is focused on all the wrong parts of this.

I just wish he would do this face to face with me. I'm hurting so bad. I want to be there for him in every way, as a friend or as a spouse. And I just feel like a failure on every level. I love him with every part of me and it's killing me to think that we could just be over in one fell swoop after so long together. I don't know what to do or where to go or how I'm going to survive this. I've never hurt so deeply in my life and I never once imagined that we would be in this position. Nobody did. All of our friends brag on how much they love us and see us as a sort of "model" for their own relationships because we've always been so inseparable as both friends and spouses. I can't see life without him.
 
I feel terrible like I put my foot in my mouth or went on for too long bc I let my feelings spill while we were on the phone,
Nah. Almost everyone I ever worked with in the field, who was still married, sent divorce papers home. A few just got “mentally divorced” and acted as if, but they were proper assholes. Sending papers, weirdly enough, means he does actually care & want what’s best. $1 will get you a $1,000 he doesn’t take your name off of his life insurance. Although he may add a couple others to it (siblings, parents, friends, etc., as a way of saying goodbye), or may not. It’s about 50/50 on that piece. But sending papers? Is still trying to do right by you.

My DAD on the other hand? Almost everyone he ever works closely with has been married decades.

Very different jobs, with very different normals attached, my dad’s MOS & my own.

I just wish he would do this face to face with me. I'm hurting so bad. I want to be there for him in every way, as a friend or as a spouse. And I just feel like a failure on every level. I love him with every part of me and it's killing me to think that we could just be over in one fell swoop after so long together. I don't know what to do or where to go or how I'm going to survive this. I've never hurt so deeply in my life and I never once imagined that we would be in this position. Nobody did. All of our friends brag on how much they love us and see us as a sort of "model" for their own relationships because we've always been so inseparable as both friends and spouses. I can't see life without him.
Wait until he comes home.

The only way to fix a relationship whilst deployed is for you to get yourself deployed to right there with him. That’s not gonna happen, unless you’ve got mad medical skills or major political juice behind you, so until then? Stop distracting him. The more you distract, the harder he’s going to have to shut you out, the more you’re gonna be hurt & heartbroken. Use all that energy, instead, to rock the home front & get strategic .
 
I have no clue how to make him wait until he gets back. He seems so set on doing it now and getting it over with, but I'm so scared that if he thinks I'm not signing, he's going to panic and feel trapped.

I sent him some messages to let him know that I understand and I don't resent him, I won't fault him for needing to take care of himself the only way he knows how. I was just honest with him. I've kept it all to myself this whole time and it was bound to come out. I told him he doesn't have to respond or write me a novel in return bc I know mine was a wall of text no matter how I tried to trim it, but I just felt like he needed to know I'm not trying to trap him but that I don't want to sign the papers.

He has a small trip planned to see some pretty scenery in a place we both consider very spiritual. I asked if he would please give me the grace to let me process this at least while he's on his trip, and I'm hoping that while he has true alone time there, he might come around to waiting until he comes home to continue.

Yeah, I probably babbled a bit too much in my messages. But I'm a wreck and I've had no way to express anything to him this entire time, and I've also kept myself in check as best I can and I felt slighted by the sudden revelation of divorce papers.

I was working on getting us a new place outside of town where he can come home and land somewhere quiet and safe. I told him I'm still doing that, bc I don't want to live here either. He also was cut off some medication cold turkey and the doctors on post are not at all helping him; one screamed at him and accused him of wanting to avoid the PT tests. So I reminded him that he felt low before, not quite this bad but still similar, and that he came out of it with a little help. I can't imagine how it feels to have asked for help and been treated in such a way. But he does want help and that's reassuring in and of itself.

I mostly just wanted him to see that I'm not trying to trap him but that I don't know what the correct move is here to make, and we need to talk it out in person. I don't know if he will wait. He seemed so adamant that he had made up his mind.

So I'm just going to tell him focus on surviving. And apologize for my babbling. He seems to want to do it NOW before the "big stress" gets here and I think I should tell him to focus on his trip and surviving even if it means silence on my part, and to let me handle things here the best way I know how. I'll get things done and ready for him no matter where this ends up. I don't want to tell him I'm not signing and fling him into a panic or stress him more. He wakes up soon and I'm trying to figure out how to phrase this to him after I already feel like I've said too much.
 
As much as I think signing would take pressure off him, it just feels like a huge mistake. And if I've fought this far, I can't stop now.
 
This only gets weirder. I wasn’t hearing from any attorney or officer so I took a shot in the dark and called who I thought was the attorney.

He tried to file months ago. The attorney changed some things in the paperwork and sent it back for approval, unaware I wasn’t in on it. He never paid the fee and never returned the approved papers and has been silent since despite what he said to me over the phone a couple days ago.

Some part of me is scared he’ll find this forum somehow and make things worse seeing me talk about this but I have no idea what to think and I have no one in my life that can understand or help. The attorney seemed shocked that I didn’t know what was going on and agreed to talk me through things if it does change. I guess we’ll see after his trip this weekend.
 
This only gets weirder. I wasn’t hearing from any attorney or officer so I took a shot in the dark and called who I thought was the attorney.

He tried to file months ago. The attorney changed some things in the paperwork and sent it back for approval, unaware I wasn’t in on it. He never paid the fee and never returned the approved papers and has been silent since despite what he said to me over the phone a couple days ago.

Some part of me is scared he’ll find this forum somehow and make things worse seeing me talk about this but I have no idea what to think and I have no one in my life that can understand or help. The attorney seemed shocked that I didn’t know what was going on and agreed to talk me through things if it does change. I guess we’ll see after his trip this weekend.
I'm so so sorry you're going through all this (am just seeing these posts). It's such an awful feeling and the isolation one of the worst parts, so I don't think you should feel bad about the forum - I wish I'd known about it when I was going through stuff several years ago. I think you do end up feeling scared about absolutely everything you do because of course none of it really makes sense, and that in itself is exhausting. Given what you said about the attorney it doesn't sound like a done deal, but it's only time will tell, I guess? I don't know how to help, but I do understand what you're going through.
 
I don't think he's going to answer me. So I sent him a short apology that said "you don't owe me an answer, I'm sorry I kicked all of this up when you're just trying to survive. Just know I'm here and I hope your day goes okay" (paraphrasing a bit) and I'm just going to try to sleep. I don't know what else to do. But I can't keep picking myself back up over and over again either way.
One friendly note. You as his spouse are Imho owed to know why your husband suddenly wants a divorce. I get he is in a very high stress environment but his actions sound pretty rash and even cruel towards you.

Hey, thanks for the reply. Unfortunately things don't really seem to be going well.

I thought we were going to wait until he came home before he made any decisions about divorce, but after a weird misunderstanding, he blindsided me that he was serving me papers anyway and he also assumed I had cheated and a myriad of other things that aren't true in any way.

It hurt me deeply that he would tell someone I cheated; I didn't, never would, and he knows that, but he also never bothered to confront me about it? He assumed and I think he was just using it as a further excuse to try and shut me out. This was all based on him seeing my phone in a location he didn't recognize. He didn't ask me where I was at, I would've told him and I leave my data on PURPOSEFULLY so he can see where I'm at. A person who was staying in his barracks told him it looked like that was what I was doing and put the thought in his head and it spiraled.

Either way. He said he wants to reset, that he wants to start over and he wants to be alone. I respect that. He's grappling with some other things about himself that maybe he DOES need to work through alone, but I still didn't understand why he thought we HAD to divorce right now. At first, he was willing to let me wait until he gets home before I sign. Now, he wants me to do it "so I don't drag it out" when he comes back. But this feels so bad. I feel like he reverse dear-John'd me and I'm hurting so bad. I won't pretend we were sunshine and daisies before, but I'm so wounded to think that he's made up his mind without me. I don't want to sign. We only have two months to go before he's home and can get help here. I don't understand why he thinks this is going to help, but I also don't want to pressure him any more than he already is and I feel like there's no right move. I feel cornered.

I understand he needs me now as a friend more than a spouse in a way, and I can respect that. But I just feel like signing these papers is a huge mistake and I don't want to do it. I also don't want to NOT sign them and force him into hurting even more or stress him out. He wants a "reset" because he doesn't know what he wants with his future, he said he might want to go to school or maybe move and that he can't afford to have another person with him while he works himself out of debt. That part doesn't make sense to me, I know I work part time now but I don't know why he thinks I won't get a different job or work or do whatever he needs. Why we can't do this together like we always have. Being married to me feels like pressure or responsibility to him in some way that I think I can grasp at least a little bit. He said I'm not a burden. But he just desperately wants to be alone in every sense.

I made it abundantly clear that I would even give him space when he comes back, that he could be alone and disappear to wherever he wanted and I would wait for him. I guess he just thinks that isn't enough. There isn't anyone he's seeing, either, before anyone jumps to that conclusion.

I feel terrible like I put my foot in my mouth or went on for too long bc I let my feelings spill while we were on the phone, I told him how much I love him and how bad I don't want to just end our relationship like this. And I know he was tired, but eventually his response was "I just want to be alone" and I could tell he was crying and upset. I've spent all this time keeping my feelings to myself but now I feel like a terrible person bc I'm scared I overwhelmed him even more. I didn't yell or talk over him. I just kind of rambled with him.

He said he's giving me everything and that it's a no-fault. I don't want everything. I just want him, even if it's as a friend. I wish I had better news. I have no idea what to do, the lawyer or attourney or whatever hasn't contacted me yet and I'm in agony trying to understand what to say or do. I have no one. His family doesn't understand and mine is focused on all the wrong parts of this.

I just wish he would do this face to face with me. I'm hurting so bad. I want to be there for him in every way, as a friend or as a spouse. And I just feel like a failure on every level. I love him with every part of me and it's killing me to think that we could just be over in one fell swoop after so long together. I don't know what to do or where to go or how I'm going to survive this. I've never hurt so deeply in my life and I never once imagined that we would be in this position. Nobody did. All of our friends brag on how much they love us and see us as a sort of "model" for their own relationships because we've always been so inseparable as both friends and spouses. I can't see life without him.
Would it be possible for you to talk a counselor? In order to get a bit more mind space to deal with what is an
understandable hard and stressful situation?

So sorry you are going through this :/
 
I get he is in a very high stress environment but his actions sound pretty rash and even cruel towards yo
You get that combat is ongoing, 24/7/365 cap T Trauma, yes?

It’s like being asked to have a cheerful discussion about your relationship, whilst being raped. Or an angry, how dare you, I’m hurting soooo badly guilt trip relationship convo… whilst being raped… whilst trying to protect the person you love from knowing what they can’t do jack shit to change.

Trying to fart the cum past the rips in your ass AND have any kind of conversation? Much less a deeply meaningful conversation with someone you love, about how much you suck, have ducked up, and are about to lose them? Isn’t rash, it’s reactive. And nearly impossible for most people.

Long term military supporters like the OP usually knooooooow how to keep things light, during a deployment, and the first few months back home. But??? They’re people, too. Who have needs and wants and desires and crisis. SHE did not cause him to knee jerk to divorce papers. How f*cked up his head/heart/life did.

As I said, earlier… I served over 20 years ago (when contact home was limited to letters every few weeks, and a phone call for 90 seconds every few months) and STILL almost everyone I served with cut the cord. Because even THINKING of home? Was too much. The constant contact modern deployments have? Has broadened the divorce-now-crowd exponentially. Because. It. Is. Just. Too. Much.

One friendly note. You as his spouse are Imho owed to know why your husband suddenly wants a divorce
he’s told her, and she’s told us. It’s too much.

That she isn’t done fighting for him? Is totally kickass, and I hope she wins… because I’m a closet romantic, and they have serious/solid/good history together. Not just a few weeks/months/years but a DECADE strong marriage. With the right strategery & a bit of luck & if he doesn’t die & if he doesn’t lose his mind? There are some good odds, there. IF he doesn’t die. IF she doesn’t hit her limit. IF the bonds they’ve forged can survive whatever has gone so very, very, very wrong this tour. They might not, and if not? That’s not wrong, not cruel, it’s loss. Grief. Tragedy. Broken hearts and broken minds.

But it’s NOT this whimsical all of a sudden thing, with no explanation. Her husband? Is a combat vet, with PTSD, in theatre… and trying to do that & be married? Right now? Is too much.
 
My biggest challenge with my supporters was that there is no way they could understand what I had gone thru. That's not a "I'm special" kind of thing. Its just a frame of reference that they didn't have. Same with being a first responder. Normal people don't see/hear/do those kind of things, so they don't want to hear about them and even if they do they simply can't understand. Again, not saying they aren't capable of support. Just that the frame of reference is very different.

Plus the shame factor is HUGE. Chances are high he got into something over there that he simply can' t face bringing home to you. So it's easier to kick you loose rather than wonder about how you will look at him in the future. That way he doesn't have to deal with it and he doesn't have to know you know. I still, after all these years, hide stuff from hubby because I just.cant. let him see that part of me. I know in my brain that he would never hold what I did against me because of the circumstances but..... I also know that if I told him it would probably leave to divorce - or at least some major marriage counseling.

I can't even imagine what you are going thru. Until I came here it never crossed my mind what supporters go thru.

That she isn’t done fighting for him? Is totally kickass, and I hope she wins… because I’m a closet romantic, and they have serious/solid/good history together. Not just a few weeks/months/years but a DECADE strong marriage. With the right strategery & a bit of luck & if he doesn’t die & if he doesn’t lose his mind? There are some good odds, there. IF he doesn’t die. IF she doesn’t hit her limit. IF the bonds they’ve forged can survive whatever has gone so very, very, very wrong this tour. They might not, and if not? That’s not wrong, not cruel, it’s loss. Grief. Tragedy. Broken hearts and broken minds.
This. I really, really hope it work out for both of you. I hope you can hold out until he gets his shit together, and that he does the work to make that happen. But it's going to be a rough road. 🫂
 
My biggest challenge with my supporters was that there is no way they could understand what I had gone thru. That's not a "I'm special" kind of thing. Its just a frame of reference that they didn't have. Same with being a first responder. Normal people don't see/hear/do those kind of things, so they don't want to hear about them and even if they do they simply can't understand. Again, not saying they aren't capable of support. Just that the frame of reference is very different.

Plus the shame factor is HUGE. Chances are high he got into something over there that he simply can' t face bringing home to you. So it's easier to kick you loose rather than wonder about how you will look at him in the future. That way he doesn't have to deal with it and he doesn't have to know you know. I still, after all these years, hide stuff from hubby because I just.cant. let him see that part of me. I know in my brain that he would never hold what I did against me because of the circumstances but..... I also know that if I told him it would probably leave to divorce - or at least some major marriage counseling.

I can't even imagine what you are going thru. Until I came here it never crossed my mind what supporters go thru.


This. I really, really hope it work out for both of you. I hope you can hold out until he gets his shit together, and that he does the work to make that happen. But it's going to be a rough road. 🫂
You made a good point that outside from the deployment one can't fully grasp what's its like out there. And also same from the supporter's side as well. My point for OP is that she also needs to take care of herself (particularly now when circumstances likely prevent fully dealing with the situation with her spouse who is likely on the another part of globe).
I wish your situation will get better @hopefulrook 🙏
 
Thank you all for the replies. It's such a weird situation to be in; my family and my family's best friends have all been military, and I've been around PTSD in some form or another for the majority of my life. I wanted to believe that if it ever came to this that I could be ready in some way, but I knew better. It's never the same, my CPTSD wasn't the same, his isn't the same. It was dumb of me to think I could ever be "ready" or just magically know what to expect; we're the couple everyone says belongs together. We're best friends. We don't do anything without the other and people always tell us how they wish their wedding had been like ours, how they wish their spouses shared their hobbies etc etc. and I was so stupid to think that he wouldn't cut me out when things went sideways.

He even said "you didn't do anything wrong" but admitted that he just "quit trying" shortly before he sent the first message about our separation. I was the biggest attachment to home, and that came across as pressure. He let someone we don't even know that convince him that I cheated based on an event he can't even recall (he claims he saw my location at someone's house he didn't recognize, but couldn't tell me where or when, nor do I go anywhere other to work and home bc I am chronically ill among other things like working long hours. I left my location on SO HE COULD SEE ME in the first place, why would I leave it on if I was being shady), and it devolved from there.

You could not force me to cheat on him under threat of death. And I mean it. I don't play that game, my parents cheated on each other and it put ME through hell watching them try to go through hoops to rationalize it and stay together. But I think that was when he initially contacted someone about the "papers" and now who knows if he even intends to follow through. I don't know why he would insist the other night that they were getting served or that "all I have to do is sign" when there are no actual papers, just a loose document that hasn't been paid for or approved by anyone.

Regardless of how much I realize I didn't catch onto over the past year or so, I think the timing of this just really drove it home. Our anniversary is just a couple weeks from now. Here I was, thinking about what we were going to do when he comes home in a couple months and where we might could go for a little vacation. Like a get-away, because our home is a lot of stress. It's old and rundown and owned by a corporate entity that would rather let me sit here in a heap of broken windows and black mold than let me just move into a different unit to renovate this one. I know he hates it here. I was even looking at moving states for him, applying for bigger jobs and trying to find a way to give him all the time he needs to recover when he comes back, and then he hits me with this. After I had been under the impression for months that we were going to work it out when he's face-to-face with me. And THEN to find out that even THAT isn't true, that there wasn't even real "paperwork" to begin with, among all the other hurtful things he's thrown at me. None of his reasonings for wanting to leave me make sense when you step back and look at them and he's insisting he'll still "take care of me" by paying rent or bills or whatever, which just???????? Why? If you want to leave me, why coddle me? Why bother supporting me if you want to get shed of me so desperately that you'd hurt me like this?

And, at first, I thought maybe there wasn't any salvaging it because he insisted he'd made his mind up. I was fully prepared to start having to explain to our friends that we were separating before I decided to just buckle down and weather it, because I simply will not let this be thrown away when he won't wait to talk it out with me face-to-face. He "doesn't want to wait until he's home" because he's scared, maybe he's scared he'll change his mind, I dunno. I just know that divorcing like this is a mistake on every front, even from a logistical standpoint. Our identities are so entangled, I'd have to contact him every 30 minutes to get accounts and names etc fixed. It's not the quick out he thinks it is and the attorney I spoke to served multiple tours; he said he saw tons of people draw up papers and never follow through, but also informed me that he had no clue I wasn't aware of it. He did not know my name or anything about me and found that odd in and of itself, and I keep wondering if he's just getting to these points when he dips low and is throwing it at me when he's hurting worst.

It's hard NOT to take it personally. I know he's trying to find himself in a way. I asked our friends if they've spoken to him, and he speaks to them much less than me which tells me at least maybe I'm still a decent anchor when he needs it. I've been trying to lay off how much I text him, but he expressed that it's okay to talk to him about day to day things like friends, and that's what I do. Just send him things about games we play or pictures of our pets doing dumb shit. Normal things. No "I love you" or anything that makes him uncomfortable, as hard as that is to manage. He does the same. Talks about what he wants to do when he comes back and our mutual hobbies. But I can tell even through text that his tone is different, he's talking to me the way he talks to his distant friends. It's destroying me some days, on others I take it on the chin and keep moving because signs of life are better than none at all.

He isn't seeing someone else. And I trust that, because he simply isn't interested in other people much at all and never has been. I was a rare case and still take pride in being his spouse. I almost wish he'd told people he was leaving me for being sick all the time rather than telling them I cheated, and I have no idea who he told or who thinks that of me. It's clear our closest friends HERE don't know; I asked them if they'd heard from him and expressed I was just worried about him in generic/general terms, and they didn't even know he was under so much stress.

I do love him. So much. I'm not going to romanticize it and pretend that what he's doing is okay or that any of this is going to work out, but I also know even the most loving and adoring animals bite when they're hurting. No, it's not okay to get bitten. But it's the only thing they can do to tell you they're hurting. If he needs just a friend when he gets home, I'll give him that, because at the end of the day I just want him to come back in one piece. But I'm not going to let a decade of our lives get thrown out the window of an MV in another country, either.

I've gotten myself an appointment booked with a counselor. Didn't mean to write a novel, but this is kind of my only outlet until then and I can't express how much it helps to have talked to y'all. Even just to yell at the void.
 

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