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I expect him not to get angry. Is that fair?

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Yes, anger is not abuse, it's not violence and it's not aggression, although those things can follow on from anger.

It can involve frustration , impatience, hurt, humiliation, overwhelm, feeling pressured, being put upon, in a way that's beyond slightly uncomfortable, tiredness, exhaustion, a response to feeling and/or being taken for granted, a response to feeling and/or being disrespected, a response to being lied to and/or about. Almost all cases involve fear, or follow on from fear, I believe.

In most cases it's about boundary infringement and the way one deals with anger can lead to further boundary infringement or, if your self awareness and communicate skill set are developed, and extensive enough, it's a useful emotional guage for the (e)motivation for maintaining healthy boundaries .

Anger is an absolutely necessary and important aspect of an assertive, non-niave self-and-sometimes-other protective mechanism, that is part of what helps us survive, and not simply be predated on and at the mercy of those-who-would-predate-on-us, those who would manipulate us and corral us into behaving in ways that are not in keeping with our soveignty and best interests.

I think those not in touch with their anger, are either very apathetic, very in denial and thus extremely unwell and potentially very dangerous to others, or themselves, or they live in some paradisical world that the rest of us can only dream of.

It's not anger that's the problem, it's what you do with it, that counts. The trickiest thing is expressing it, at the right time, at the right people/person and for the right reasons.

The most manipulative, hurtful, controlling and harmful people in my life have tried to manipulate me by telling me my anger is not allowed, thus, ultimately, completely disempowering me.

By not accepting responsibility for infringing on my boundaries, by censoring me and dictating to me "how I should feel and how I should allow them to treat me any way they pleased" they were basically telling me that I am of lesser value to them, that my feelings don't matter and they are are the arbitrators of what's permitted and what's not.

They oppressed me and rendered me further vulnerable to having my boundaries violated and THAT is what made me a whole lot angrier. So I had to get away from them.

Because I wasn't allowed to have boundaries, because anger wasn't permitted, it was a completely disempowering power dynamic. Anger is an indicator of the necessity for boundary vigilance and not allowing others to express their's makes you a boundary violator.
 
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I'm like a lot of people on here but to the OP.. It sounds like your dad was passive-aggressive. That scares the h&'ll out of me because I grew up with a schizophrenic and I see patterns pretty easily. When you have respect for each other.. believe it or not, it's okay to be hot under the collar because they KNOW you and that takes time. Two years minimum. Its not something you get right away.
 
Thanks so much for all of your thoughtful responses. I wanted to try and hit up as many as I could, but undoubtedly I'll miss some really good points. I feel like some people misunderstood me, but even then they had some really good points. And there was a lot of you that I think hit it on the nail.

Most important point: I do agree that anger is an important emotion. Aristotle called it the "emotion of justice". As many of you said, it tells us that our boundaries have been crossed and it impels us to seek justice. But also, as many of you said, the very important thing is what we do with that anger.

Very important point: I DO NOT BELIEVE IN TRYING TO CONTROL SOMEONE ELSE'S ANGER. My T convinced me that the way I framed the conversation was anticipatory, but appropriate, and my bf did not take it as a way of trying to control him. So I'm satisfied that this was neither my intention, nor effect. The title of this thread, I think, is more inflammatory than what is the case.

he couldn’t even show anger toward his ex who treated his children like shit
I agree with this. I think suppressing/splitting off from anger is just as bad as being overly aggressive about anger. I get angry at parents who stay with abusive spouses too. I left my ex at a time when I hadn't finished my degree, had no job, my son was younger than 2 and I was scared as s**t, but jumped into the abyss anyway. I really have a hard time accepting the choice some parents make to stay out of whatever, apathy, fear or convenience.

Watch out for the anger/agression overlap.
I understand the caution here. However, in the quote you refer to, I really did mean 'anger' and not merely the aggressive form. A little story: early on in my journey to re-evaluate my relationship with anger, I used to get road rage. I was in the habit of getting mad at traffic, drivers, etc. and I "allowed" it because I thought it was harmless enough. But then I looked back at my young son who was about 5 years old at the time, and I could see that he was very concerned, perhaps scared at my raised voice and angry expression. Around the same time, we had a neighbor family who's father raged almost every night. Without warning, we'd hear loud yelling, and a second later, there would be crying. They had three kids, but I think it was the youngest one who always cried. I could totally imagine the dad justifying his behavior by saying that at least he wasn't "really" violent, or that he was just being human. I myself was always startled by the angry voice, my heart would be a little faster and I got a little scared. I realized that my yelling for whatever reason was distressing and scary, and for what? Traffic? So I decided not to get mad in the car. I meditated instead, and started realizing that there was so much I could be focused on instead of bad drivers. I was alive, with my son, on a beautiful day, in no hurry. Why the hell was I focused in on the red light getting impatient?? Over time, I totally lost my road rage. I would be horrified to have to go back to a time when instead of relaxing with music and company, I was hunched over my wheel cursing out cars. I do think angry thoughts breed more angry thoughts. I definitely think we build habits of thought that can be healthy or unhealthy.

Have you ever felt anger like that on your own behalf????
I said in an earlier post that I have definitely, definitely felt anger and rage. My childhood left me with a lot of that. I sometimes wonder if I had borderline tendencies because sometimes the rage felt uncontrollable. The fact is I have the luxury to say that I am in a much better place because of all the work of healing. At the same time, even then, I think what I'm saying now applies - where you are with your anger is fact, but not the aspiration. I wanted to signal to my bf that wherever we are, I want to be able to aspire to handling anger in a way that does not multiply that suffering by inflicting the demons of the past on each other. I want to build up as much as possible gestures and choices towards uplifting, respecting, and supporting the other. A lifetime of making such choices I think is possible and ideal. Anger tends to be destructive.

Anger is a secondary emotion. It is always triggered by a primary emotion. More than one therapist was concerned enough that I was to caught up in the primary emotion that I couldn't move on to anger to release it.
I agree with this. My T thinks the primary emotions are hurt and fear. She and I decided that anger is such a sensitive issue because it speaks to a core of vulnerability. But moreover, anger is way of protecting ourselves from hurting, so to tell someone to lower the shield I think kicks up even more feelings of vulnerability. If someone tells you to lower your shield, you want to raise it even higher! To me, that's the reason why many of us go back and forth between suppression and aggression. But BOTH are ways of avoiding primary vulnerability. To be able to sit with hurt and be able to ask the other to address that hurt is a lot harder than yelling your brains out. I try to communicate the underlying hurt to my bf every time I feel it even if it feels silly and scary. Most of the time, it is just silly, and turns out to not be a correct perception. But I insist on vocalizing it anyway so that I am not left with a distorted view unchecked. And thankfully, he appreciates me clearing the air. I genuinely think this will help avoid blow ups later.

Habits are totaly different and it seems you are trying to equate that with anger. Anger doesn't breed anger, shit that triigers the primary emotion breeds anger.
I kind of disagree with this for the reasons I stated earlier.

n other words, I’m trying to predict and control the others potential behavior because deep down I know I will struggle to have a healthy response for myself if it does occur.
I'll admit if I'm trying to control someone, but generally I am not someone who tries to control another. That's just not a part of my MO, at least now. I think I was somewhat like that when I was younger. My bf isn't controlling either. But I respect that you can be self-aware.

I'm not saying I'm gonna be violent because I'm angry I'm saying every time I've experienced violence there was anger but, that's just for me.
I understand this and agree with the sentiment. I do believe though that the feeling of anger itself should not be ignored because as everyone is saying, it is highly instructive.

anger is the emotion whose job is to keep other people from running over the top of us. I
Yes, like Aristotle said, anger is the "emotion of justice". It tells us when our boundaries have been violated. But even he said that emotion itself doesn't discern what we ought to do. To act impulsively is animalistic; to act by choice is human.


In most cases it's about boundary infringement and the way one deals with anger can lead to further boundary infringement or, if your self awareness and communicate skill set are developed, and extensive enough, it's a useful emotional guage for the (e)motivation for maintaining healthy boundaries .
I agree with this as I've said a number of times above.

Anger is an absolutely necessary and important aspect of an assertive, non-niave self-and-sometimes-other protective mechanism, that is part of what helps us survive, and not simply be predated on and at the mercy of those-who-would-predate-on-us, those who would manipulate us and corral us into behaving in ways that are not in keeping with our soveignty and best interests.
Agreed. There are times when I make it a point to stay with my anger because I think it's so instructive. When I was bulldozed over by my parents, I didn't have time nor ability to reflect on the ways in which that impacted me. I like how Walker describes anger as a protest emotion. At first, if we don't get our needs met, we get angry, and after a while we give up and conclude that it is our needs that were wrong, not our parents. We need our parents to survive, so we contort our behaviors to make our parents's demands work no matter how much we have to distort and suppress ourselves. I think getting in touch with our anger revives our sense of selves. We were not wrong for having needs for love and recognition. I do think that anger at past hurts causes a problem when it gets mixed in with justified anger in the present. The raging over and above what is justified is so unfair to the other. There is no end to this rage, so nothing one could do can truly satisfy and resolve it. I've been trying to present to my partner feelings of hurt or misunderstandings that I want him to address. I make it possible to address it fully and I give him a way of completely resolving it to our satisfaction. Any kind of venting and raging over and above this is exhausting, futile, and without redress. That's okay too if that's where one is. But as I said earlier, that kind of exchange is not what I want to aspire to.

The most manipulative, hurtful, controlling and harmful people in my life have tried to manipulate me by telling me my anger is not allowed, thus, ultimately, completely disempowering me.
Are you implying that this what I'm doing with boyfriend?
 
Anger tends to be destructive.
I think that it’s really obvious that you’ve put a tonne of work into managing your emotions, anger especially. It shows in your posts, and if you haven’t already, perhaps give yourself a little high five because there’s so much work involved in getting to where you are now.

I think where I’m at, reading your posts, is that there does seem to be an underlying issue that you’re hanging onto with anger, that jumps out a bit at me with this particular statement that you’ve made.

Like you’ve said, when you acknowledge and deal with anger, and whatever has caused it, it dissipates (like all emotions). And it absolutely doesn’t need to be destructive. To the contrary, like the examples you’ve given in your post - when you acknowledge and deal with anger when it occurs, you oftentimes move to a better place.

Aggression tends to be destructive. Anger, though, is what motivates us to change. So go looking for it, even in its more subtle forms. Handled constructively (rather than deatructively), it can be an incredibly positive force for change. And that includes when anger turns up in our relationships: anger says “There’s a problem here”, so grab that with both hands and deal with it together:)
 
Thanks so much for all of your thoughtful responses. I wanted to try and hit up as many as I could, but undoubtedly I'll miss some really good points. I feel like some people misunderstood me, but even then they had some really good points. And there was a lot of you that I think hit it on the nail.

Most important point: I do agree that anger is an important emotion. Aristotle called it the "emotion of justice". As many of you said, it tells us that our boundaries have been crossed and it impels us to seek justice. But also, as many of you said, the very important thing is what we do with that anger.

Very important point: I DO NOT BELIEVE IN TRYING TO CONTROL SOMEONE ELSE'S ANGER. My T convinced me that the way I framed the conversation was anticipatory, but appropriate, and my bf did not take it as a way of trying to control him. So I'm satisfied that this was neither my intention, nor effect. The title of this thread, I think, is more inflammatory than what is the case.


I agree with this. I think suppressing/splitting off from anger is just as bad as being overly aggressive about anger. I get angry at parents who stay with abusive spouses too. I left my ex at a time when I hadn't finished my degree, had no job, my son was younger than 2 and I was scared as s**t, but jumped into the abyss anyway. I really have a hard time accepting the choice some parents make to stay out of whatever, apathy, fear or convenience.


I understand the caution here. However, in the quote you refer to, I really did mean 'anger' and not merely the aggressive form. A little story: early on in my journey to re-evaluate my relationship with anger, I used to get road rage. I was in the habit of getting mad at traffic, drivers, etc. and I "allowed" it because I thought it was harmless enough. But then I looked back at my young son who was about 5 years old at the time, and I could see that he was very concerned, perhaps scared at my raised voice and angry expression. Around the same time, we had a neighbor family who's father raged almost every night. Without warning, we'd hear loud yelling, and a second later, there would be crying. They had three kids, but I think it was the youngest one who always cried. I could totally imagine the dad justifying his behavior by saying that at least he wasn't "really" violent, or that he was just being human. I myself was always startled by the angry voice, my heart would be a little faster and I got a little scared. I realized that my yelling for whatever reason was distressing and scary, and for what? Traffic? So I decided not to get mad in the car. I meditated instead, and started realizing that there was so much I could be focused on instead of bad drivers. I was alive, with my son, on a beautiful day, in no hurry. Why the hell was I focused in on the red light getting impatient?? Over time, I totally lost my road rage. I would be horrified to have to go back to a time when instead of relaxing with music and company, I was hunched over my wheel cursing out cars. I do think angry thoughts breed more angry thoughts. I definitely think we build habits of thought that can be healthy or unhealthy.


I said in an earlier post that I have definitely, definitely felt anger and rage. My childhood left me with a lot of that. I sometimes wonder if I had borderline tendencies because sometimes the rage felt uncontrollable. The fact is I have the luxury to say that I am in a much better place because of all the work of healing. At the same time, even then, I think what I'm saying now applies - where you are with your anger is fact, but not the aspiration. I wanted to signal to my bf that wherever we are, I want to be able to aspire to handling anger in a way that does not multiply that suffering by inflicting the demons of the past on each other. I want to build up as much as possible gestures and choices towards uplifting, respecting, and supporting the other. A lifetime of making such choices I think is possible and ideal. Anger tends to be destructive.


I agree with this. My T thinks the primary emotions are hurt and fear. She and I decided that anger is such a sensitive issue because it speaks to a core of vulnerability. But moreover, anger is way of protecting ourselves from hurting, so to tell someone to lower the shield I think kicks up even more feelings of vulnerability. If someone tells you to lower your shield, you want to raise it even higher! To me, that's the reason why many of us go back and forth between suppression and aggression. But BOTH are ways of avoiding primary vulnerability. To be able to sit with hurt and be able to ask the other to address that hurt is a lot harder than yelling your brains out. I try to communicate the underlying hurt to my bf every time I feel it even if it feels silly and scary. Most of the time, it is just silly, and turns out to not be a correct perception. But I insist on vocalizing it anyway so that I am not left with a distorted view unchecked. And thankfully, he appreciates me clearing the air. I genuinely think this will help avoid blow ups later.


I kind of disagree with this for the reasons I stated earlier.


I'll admit if I'm trying to control someone, but generally I am not someone who tries to control another. That's just not a part of my MO, at least now. I think I was somewhat like that when I was younger. My bf isn't controlling either. But I respect that you can be self-aware.


I understand this and agree with the sentiment. I do believe though that the feeling of anger itself should not be ignored because as everyone is saying, it is highly instructive.


Yes, like Aristotle said, anger is the "emotion of justice". It tells us when our boundaries have been violated. But even he said that emotion itself doesn't discern what we ought to do. To act impulsively is animalistic; to act by choice is human.



I agree with this as I've said a number of times above.


Agreed. There are times when I make it a point to stay with my anger because I think it's so instructive. When I was bulldozed over by my parents, I didn't have time nor ability to reflect on the ways in which that impacted me. I like how Walker describes anger as a protest emotion. At first, if we don't get our needs met, we get angry, and after a while we give up and conclude that it is our needs that were wrong, not our parents. We need our parents to survive, so we contort our behaviors to make our parents's demands work no matter how much we have to distort and suppress ourselves. I think getting in touch with our anger revives our sense of selves. We were not wrong for having needs for love and recognition. I do think that anger at past hurts causes a problem when it gets mixed in with justified anger in the present. The raging over and above what is justified is so unfair to the other. There is no end to this rage, so nothing one could do can truly satisfy and resolve it. I've been trying to present to my partner feelings of hurt or misunderstandings that I want him to address. I make it possible to address it fully and I give him a way of completely resolving it to our satisfaction. Any kind of venting and raging over and above this is exhausting, futile, and without redress. That's okay too if that's where one is. But as I said earlier, that kind of exchange is not what I want to aspire to.


Are you implying that this what I'm doing with boyfriend?

I can't possibly know what you are doing with your boyfriend, it's not for me to judge. I was sharing MY truth, what my experience has taught me.

Certainly, if I laid down some kind of law with my own boyfriend, I might have underminded an otherwise beautiful, enriching, supportive and safe relationship, of which I am in short supply, as he can run hot at times, but his heart is good, kind and loving and he has NEVER been violent or abusive towards me.

I have had fights with him that end up where l focus on his tone and volume, instead of the original issue (not often, thank God!) as I have learnt and am naturally, a fairly controlled and calm person and I prefer to TALK rather than yell and it's a trigger for me and overwhelms my senses. Like yourself, I done a lot of personal development and self disciplinary work to manage and regulate emotion based behaviour, so, in general, I have the same impulse as you, I want to bring the energy down so we can calmly discuss the issue, but by trying to control and censor HIS expression, I end up, inadvertently, escalating and prolonging the heated argument.

I'm glad I made my preference clear, though, as he has now acknowledged that yelling to resolve conflict is generally counterproductive and I am satisfied that we are learning to manage the trigger responses more maturely and less counterproductively. This has all taken years, we are now well into our middle ages.

However, I do cut him some slack, because I know enough about his past to know that the man is honourable and his angry passionate responses, when he feels his boundaries have been stepped on, are nothing compared to the abuses and violence he himself has endured.

It's all contextual, isn't it?

We are two individuals who have been very badly treated for extensive periods by way too many people. Our C-ptsd is compounded by our high functioning autism, which has made up susceptible to being highly vulnerable to bullying and targeting by exploitative and personality disordered people (exs who we have children with, being the most problematic) so getting angry, and being able to vent and stand up for ourselves with a safe, kind and understanding other, has been instrumental in our development of healthier boundaries and senses of self.

I thoroughly agree with you, though, in that undisciplined and thoughless expressions of anger, frustration and impatience etc. can be and are, in general, damaging and counterproductive.

I do know that the way we express it is pretty minimal, we are usually happy, jokey, affectionate kind people in our own lovey bubble, because we are so happy to have found a true friend after so much hardship and misery (9 years on and going strong :-)).

Having said that, sadness and grief for terrible co parenting situations continue to plague us both and be fairly impossible to do that much about, so there is compassion and awareness for what that does to our stress levels at times.

I rarely show anger to my son, probably not enough, but because of this, he responds to it, when I do.

I think there is power in remaining calm and controlled when under the influence of our "Justice promoting emotion" and I am someone who demonstrates that most of the time.

I think my kid is much more secure and advantaged for this stance, and he is a very innerly-controlled young man, himself.
 
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I get angry at parents who stay with abusive spouses too. I left my ex at a time when I hadn't finished my degree, had no job, my son was younger than 2 and I was scared as s**t, but jumped into the abyss anyway. I really have a hard time accepting the choice some parents make to stay out of whatever, apathy, fear or convenience.

I'm sorry @PreciousChild I found this part of your post disturbing. You get angry because parents don't or didn't do something you did?

I get that you feel your particular circumstances were terrible for you and yet you managed to flee them. Not everyone has that capacity. I'd wish everyone did and would but it's not always possible. Some parents don't make a 'choice' to stay.

Apathy, fear and convenience are not the only inhibitors or factors or combination of circumstances that prevent a parent from leaving abusive spouses. It's much more complicated than that.

But I guess what spiked my interest is your use of the word anger at what are at best victims. Did you really mean to use the word anger?
 
I'm sorry @PreciousChild I found this part of your post disturbing. You get angry because parents don't or didn't do something you did?

I get that you feel your particular circumstances were terrible for you and yet you managed to flee them. Not everyone has that capacity. I'd wish everyone did and would but it's not always possible. Some parents don't make a 'choice' to stay.

Apathy, fear and convenience are not the only inhibitors or factors or combination of circumstances that prevent a parent from leaving abusive spouses. It's much more complicated than that.

But I guess what spiked my interest is your use of the word anger at what are at best victims. Did you really mean to use the word anger?
It took me a long time to realize that I harbored anger at my passive mom who allowed my aggressive dad to abuse us. I think the passive parent is all the more frustrating because they often do not take responsibility for their part, as my mom did. Until the day she died, she never acknowledged her part.

Maybe anger is strong word for how I feel about parents who keep their children in abusive situations. I understand that they're victimized too, but they have a choice to make things better that the child doesn't. They are the adult in the situation. I know that when I had the choice, I chose to protect my child. My ex bf's mom stayed with her husband until the day he died despite seeing her kids getting abused and being a victim of the abuse herself. It seemed to me that she did so because she wanted to keep her home and comfortable (materially) life. I disagree with her choice for comfort over the inner lives of her children.

But you're right, there are a lot of circumstances I am not accounting for, and if I sounded like I was making a blanket statement, I should take that back.
 
Yes, @mumstheword , I think we're mostly in agreement. It sounds like you guys have grown together and work well. I think the key thing I was trying to say that you also seem to agree with is that wherever we are with our relationship to anger, if we can agree that unchecked, shit-throwing anger where everyone gets dirty but nothing gets accomplished, happens and is understandable, but is not something that should be anyone's aspiration. Again, our culture is lead to believe that if we don't liberate anger, we are dangerously suppressing it, which will explode all the more later. But the research does not back this up. If people read the link to the inuit article, the author who writes about how Inuit parents control their anger and teach their children to, she expresses this very prejudice of the West. She expects to find some latent, hidden anger in the Inuit people that is lying in wait. But she's surprised to find that there isn't anything like that. But again, the anger borne by ptsd is very different. For one thing, it can be driven way down to a place we don't even sometimes realize. I'm not looking for perfection, but I am hoping that when it comes time, my bf and I won't be taking turns bashing each other when we get angry. To the extent that we can create good habits of mind, I want to do that instead just throw up our hands and act on every angry impulse.
 
It seemed to me that she did so because she wanted to keep her home and comfortable (materially) life.

(Not my situation even remotely, though to the point of discussion) ... I think this bit, right there, can be very much protectiveness, in many a parent cases.

As in trying to give the kid at least something, by them staying, instead of throwing the life completely in turmoil (with the abuser probably still getting their way.)
 
(Not my situation even remotely, though to the point of discussion) ... I think this bit, right there, can be very much protectiveness, in many a parent cases.

As in trying to give the kid at least something, by them staying, instead of throwing the life completely in turmoil (with the abuser probably still getting their way.)
Thanks. That's a good perspective to keep in mind. Maybe I'm being a little judgmental about parents who stay in abusive situations. I understand that they probably don't intend harm by staying despite the fact that it does do harm to the child in the end.
 
Thanks. That's a good perspective to keep in mind. Maybe I'm being a little judgmental about parents who stay in abusive situations. I understand that they probably don't intend harm by staying despite the fact that it does do harm to the child in the end.
In my case, harm was done to my children by staying AND by going. Less harm was done to my children by staying as long as I did, and less harm was done by going when I did, I believe..

In some cases more harm results from one leaving and less from staying the length one stays.

I really don't think it's cut and dried.

In many cases, the question is, where to go?
And, is it going to cause more harm to children?
My children were VERY hurt, some of them, but still better off for me leaving, as I would have died, and/or completely lost my mind, for sure, had I stayed.

My case, is not the most cliched example though, as my ex was a very covert abuser and a ruthless liar, so things get trickier, legally, when it's more culty and less overt violence.
 
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