I expect him not to get angry. Is that fair?

[Sideways]

Maybe I'm being a little judgmental about parents

Judgmental?

Or...not comfortable with being angry at your parents. For your sake.

I mentioned a couple of posts back about getting angry “on your own behalf”. You’ve just found a stack of reasons not to get angry at your parents on your own behalf. First getting angry at other parents who don’t manage abuse the way your parents should have for you, and now deciding that you’re being ‘judgemental’ with your parents.

Maybe (just guessing) there’s (perfectly justified, healthy even) anger there. Maybe you’re angry as hell at your parents because they screwed it up with you? And possibly, the anger redirected at other parents might shift one day if you confront that??? (Still just guessing here!)

Thing about being angry on our own behalf (as opposed to, say, angry on behalf of the children in other abusive households), is it requires a fair load of self-worth.

One of my favourite quotes from Courage to Heal is “when I get angry it’s because I know I’m worth getting angry for”. You’re worth being angry for, you know? It’s not just other kids who deserved better, you deserved better too.

And that will carry forward into your new relationship. You need to be able to get angry at your partner. You need to have enough self worth to get angry when this person doesn’t treat you right. It’s not just healthy emotionally, it’s about your own sense of value and worth.

How you deal with that anger is the second step. The first step is actually getting angry on your own behalf when someone treats you badly.

Maybe...?

 

[EveHarrington]

To me it sounds like you have your stance on anger and you just look for research to back up what you believe.

No emotion is wrong. Ever.

It’s the behaviors linked to the emotion that can be problematic.

Are you familiar with CBT? If not I suggest that you read up on the feeling/thought/behavior triangle.

 

[PreciousChild]

To me it sounds like you have your stance on anger and you just look for research to back up what you believe.

No emotion is wrong. Ever.

It’s the behaviors linked to the emotion that can be problematic.

Are you familiar with CBT? If not I suggest that you read up on the feeling/thought/behavior triangle.

I pretty much agree with this, and I don't think I said once that anger is bad or immoral or anything like that. But I do think it's a second-order phenomenon like someone said, so a lot of factors go into it, both affective and cognitive. My T is trained in CBT.

I wanted to share a story about my 15 year old son that just happened. He's into Magic the Gathering and has spent years collecting cards that he likes and has them in plastic protective sleeves. We know for sure we have a card valued at $40 (a pack of 20 cards is only $3). Last night I spilled some soup all over one of his favorite decks (long story how that happened). It was late, so I left them to deal with later. He woke up this morning and asked what happened to his cards? I apologized and told him what happened and I also told him I'd make sure to try to clean them off, hoping that the cards (made of paper board) would not be ruined. I was sure that he'd be mad, and I would have been okay with that because he has spent a lot of his time, energy, and some of his own money collecting them. But all he said was "okay" and left for school. I really feel that at least in part his reaction is based on how I've handled such things in the past. If he breaks something in the house, I know that it's not on purpose, so I just tell him it's fine, and ask him how he's going to fix it. He offers to help clean up, fix it, or pay for it, and that's that. I've always told him that he's much more important than a material object, even though sometimes I'm kind of pissed inside that he wasn't more careful or because I liked the broken object a lot. I think that there's a learned element in what we get mad about, and I think it's possible and ideal to avoid getting unnecessarily mad. So yes, feelings aren't ever wrong, but it's a product of our thoughts in part and that is flexible. I think that's what CBT is about as well. I was able to restore the cards and spent hours cleaning the sleeves today. They're good as new. The fact is that if he had blown up about the incident and we spent time yelling at each other, we would have injected hostility and bad feelings over something that was completely resolvable and fine in the end. I think he's better off not having had the inclination of being wronged in the first place, and I don't think he's missing out on anything.

 

[EveHarrington]

The fact is that if he had blown up about the incident and we spent time yelling at each other, we would have injected hostility and bad feelings over something that was completely resolvable and fine in the end.

And this is the crux of the issue.

Despite all of the CBT you’ve been through, you still don’t understand the basic foundation of the thought/feeling/action triangle. You are still equating a feeling with an action, when they are two very different things.

This conversation really can’t go forward until you are able to see the difference between feeling anger and acting out anger.

Do you understand that it’s possible to be pissed as fck but not explode?

I think it would also help you to focus on the skill of black/white, all/nothing thinking.......you’re defending your stance with CBT ideas but you’re cherry picking the skills that you want to use, while throwing away the ones that don’t back up your opinion. Can you see this?

 

[PreciousChild]

I did say in my post that I sometimes felt pissed and didn't show it. In fact, I said it over and over again throughout my posts that there is a distinction. I think I understand the "triangle". I understand that one can feel anger and still not exhibit it in action. But part of this thread was me asserting that action and thoughts can lead to feelings of anger. In the part you quoted of me, my point was that bad feelings can be generated by how one acts towards one another. In this case, it's not a conflation of feeling and action, but it's a causal relationship. Do you think that where no hostility and anger was, someone yelling at you can generate it?

I'll let my T decide if I'm confused about CBT. I honestly don't think you've read everything I posted to make that judgment.

ETA: my son came home and saw that I cleaned his cards, and he thanked me. He then stated that he'd be keeping his cards in his room. Haha. Fair enough. I thanked him for being so cool about it.

I am usually pretty open about how flawed I am and lacking in many life skills. But I'm digging my foot in here a little about anger because I find that we don't sufficiently consider alternatives in interpreting anger on this forum. My T validated my thinking about anger, and I think there's validity in it, and worth considering.

 

[mumstheword]

I got really angry today. I chose to leave the scene and take a walk to cool down. I didn't shout, but I was clipped and snipey.

Shouting accomplishes nothing of value, IMO, unless one is not being heard and then, it's only useful until attention is given.

Sometimes it's care that precedes anger and in my case, my daughter was late for an important appointment, and we had to cancel. I really wanted to go, she was getting her braces removed and it meant we would have a rare afternoon.together.

Lateness is a pet hate of mine, but I'm usually able to keep my cool, regardless.

What I don't do, is allow my anger to be cause to blame or shame other's or an excuse to be emotionally abusive.

I exercise self discipline, but that has only come with maturity. I am only human still, so am liable to get things wrong, just as much as anybody, but I try very hard to be as kind as possible, anyway.

I'm just sorry I lost my emotional equalibrium because my precious time with my daughter was marred and cut short by my mood.

Still, maybe she will be more attentive to time in future.

Underlying my anger was disappointment, because it meant my afternoon with my out-of-home daughter was cancelled.

Still, I know she was affected by my mood, she apologised straight away and my partner said she felt bad for me being upset, which she expressed after I got out of the car for my cool down walk. I couldn't let it go, I was too far gone to calm down immediately, so I opted for the walk, rather than inflict it on my loved ones .

I chose to go for a walk, rather than inflict it on other's any longer than necessary. Only a few short minutes of misery, for them, for me, it's taking much longer to return to equilibrium because I sabotaged what I really wanted, a little bit of time with my nearly eighteen year old daughter.

Anger is not ideal, but it does signify our expectations towards other's in a rather impactful manner, regardless of our judgement of it.

Hopefully, my girl doesn't treat an important appointment, where other's have cancelled work and other important meetings for her sake, so casually and glibly, in the future.

I think she'll be A LOT more responsible, for seeing me so upset at something she did.

Anger doesn't feel good, but then, neither does those around us being irresponsible and costing us time and money, and stress, due to carelessness.

I think compassion is the answer.

Recognition that anger is suffering, rather than judging from a place of moral high ground, because NO ONE likes to suffer.

Then we can choose to modify our behaviour to support the one's suffering, because we are compassionate for their suffering, ideally, without allowing it (the anger) to be used in a manipulative, bullying manner (that would be oppressive, abusive, irresponsible hostile anger) .

If we are fair with our expression of anger, and show self discipline and self responsibility, it is only a sign of our boundaries being broached, and that we are suffering, not an act of moral harm.

 

[PreciousChild]

I got really angry today. I chose to leave the scene and take a walk to cool down. I didn't shout, but I was clipped and snipey.

Shouting accomplishes nothing of value, IMO, unless one is not being heard and then, it's only useful until attention is given.

Sometimes it's care that precedes anger and in my case, my daughter was late for an important appointment, and we had to cancel. I really wanted to go, she was getting her braces removed and it meant we would have a rare afternoon.together.

Lateness is a pet hate of mine, but I'm usually able to keep my cool, regardless.

What I don't do, is allow my anger to be cause to blame or shame other's or an excuse to be emotionally abusive.

I exercise self discipline, but that has only come with maturity. I am only human still, so am liable to get things wrong, just as much as anybody, but I try very hard to be as kind as possible, anyway.

I'm just sorry I lost my emotional equalibrium because my precious time with my daughter was marred and cut short by my mood.

Still, maybe she will be more attentive to time in future.

Underlying my anger was disappointment, because it meant my afternoon with my out-of-home daughter was cancelled.

Still, I know she was affected by my mood, she apologised straight away and my partner said she felt bad for me being upset, which she expressed after I got out of the car for my cool down walk. I couldn't let it go, I was too far gone to calm down immediately, so I opted for the walk, rather than inflict it on my loved ones .

I chose to go for a walk, rather than inflict it on other's any longer than necessary. Only a few short minutes of misery, for them, for me, it's taking much longer to return to equilibrium because I sabotaged what I really wanted, a little bit of time with my nearly eighteen year old daughter.

Anger is not ideal, but it does signify our expectations towards other's in a rather impactful manner, regardless of our judgement of it.

Hopefully, my girl doesn't treat an important appointment, where other's have cancelled work and other important meetings for her sake, so casually and glibly, in the future.

I think she'll be A LOT more responsible, for seeing me so upset at something she did.

Anger doesn't feel good, but then, neither does those around us being irresponsible and costing us time and money, and stress, due to carelessness.

I think compassion is the answer.

Recognition that anger is suffering, rather than judging from a place of moral high ground, because NO ONE likes to suffer.

Then we can choose to modify our behaviour to support the one's suffering, because we are compassionate for their suffering, ideally, without allowing it (the anger) to be used in a manipulative, bullying manner (that would be oppressive, abusive, irresponsible hostile anger) .

If we are fair with our expression of anger, and show self discipline and self responsibility, it is only a sign of our boundaries being broached, and that we are suffering, not an act of moral harm.

I totally get the experience you were having here, @mumstheword, and I think you exhibit a lot of self-awareness in describing how you were feeling and what you thought was underlying the anger. My T thinks that a lot of anger comes from hurt, and in particular fear of abandonment and being unloveable. You said the underlying feeling was disappointment at lost time with your daughter. That is a very sweet and loving wish. I think us ptsd folks are quick to transform tender feelings into anger because in the past, our innocent wishes went unmet, sometimes brutally so, so I think it's a kind of defense mechanism. My T thinks that getting in touch with the part that's hurt and expressing it keeps the focus on the love that's motivating the anger that comes up in any breach like that, and I think that's important for your daughter to see. But I think I get what you're saying about the healthy role anger plays - it does signal that there is suffering that needs to be addressed, and we of course want our kids to be empathetic.

 

[Ronin]

I think I understand the "triangle".

... Reckon those explanations also had a purpose, so one don't get mad and into conflicts for easily resolvable nonsense, and think you do that just well enough, as it not only works in your life... but also in that of your son, (and those he interacts with, like the group of players of MTG.)

So, all around, well done. :)

 

[PreciousChild]

Thanks @Ronin! You use the MTG acronym like a pro.

 

[PreciousChild]

I wanted to post an update: after a few weeks of me panicking on the inside that my sharing thoughts on anger was scaring him off (I was convinced at times that he was going to leave me without any proof in fact), my bf and I have come to a good understanding. He said he was confused and didn't understand at first, but he said that my thoughts made him think about his own relationship to anger, and has inspired him to work on his road rage among other things. Since then, I got upset because I was perceiving something that turned out to be a total distortion based on my ptsd. He detected that something was wrong and asked me about it. I told him what was bothering me and he said words that are still ringing in my ear: "Tell me what you need." I told him that that was a really good thing for him to say. I cannot imagine either of my exes saying that - they were too caught up in their own issues and any complaint from me triggered their own insecurities and defensive maneuverings. I realized that part of the panic I've been feeling was me putting my needs out there at all, but my bf heard me and wanted to make it better. Things are evolving so nicely - he told me that he sees a beautiful future together. There's a part of me that's waiting for the bubble to burst, but in taking risks and putting my genuine feelings out there, I feel that we're building upon authentic, solid building blocks.

I also wanted to say that the reason the issue of anger is important to me is because I think it blinds us. After devastating me in my childhood which made me depressed, depersonalized, and brought me to the brink of suicide, my dad casually mentioned how good of a dad he was when I was around 30 years old. My siblings and I looked at each other like wtf??? When he let his anger fuel his cruelty, I am convinced that he only remembered the pain and hurt that he was responding to, not the torture that his raging and abuse was placing on me and my siblings. I believe that in the past, the anger that fueled some of my behaviors was affecting my child negatively in a parallel way if not to the extreme. I wanted to give my child the parent he deserved, not just what I was capable of, and that meant I had to do better than my best. I do feel I've transformed my relationship to anger by reaching beyond the moment into what was possible and now I feel that I've reached a point that feels good and is sustainable.