Lies Are Truth

[digger]

There is no mechanism by which I can have become dissociative, so I can't be.

From what I know of it, dissociation is a broad spectrum. While it may be true to say that you don't believe there to be anything 'bad enough' to cause the extremes of something like DID, some dissociative states don't have those same requirements.

Also worth considering is that what seems 'bad enough' to you now at this point in your life, may have felt differently to you at the time of life that it happened. How you perceive it now may not be the same as how you, or your mind, perceived it at the time, and that may be where the dissociation comes from.

 

[joeylittle]

the reality that i have nothing in my past to precipitate dissociation

I barely scrape into enough for PTSD, so logic says I can't possibly have a dissociative disorder

As @digger said, dissociation does have a spectrum, and I don't think it requires a Criterion A trauma. Would you mind listing what your therapist considers to be trauma (that you think she is hanging onto, and possibly exaggerating)?

 

[Sandstone]

Things like the ending of my first marriage, which she considers traumatic because I feared HIV, the stillbirth of my first child, where she considers the trauma relates to medical disbelief of physical symptoms, isolation.

 

[scout86]

There can be only one truth. Truth or lie. Fact or non-fact

Respectfully disagree. I hate beets. My truth is that beets are virtually inedible and should be banned from the planet. My ex loved beets. HIS truth was they should be eaten frequently.

Was my ex "lying" when he said beets were a delicacy? No, I think he was merely "wrong". (And he lied a lot, so this is something of an exception.)

The thing about "Criteria A trauma" is there's the element of perception. You are exposed to things that lead your brain to change the way it's wired. Inside your head, I seriously doubt there's a difference between believing your life is in danger when it IS and BELIEVING your life is in danger when it isn't. Your brain is going to respond to the perception, not the "fact". A lot of times, in the moment, there isn't enough information and you don't have all the facts.

You thought you might have HIV? Well, that would be at LEAST life altering and, at one time, it was a real death sentence. At the time you thought that, you didn't know if you did or not. Your brain would have responded the same way, regardless.

When I was an infant, I had some issues with my mother. I don't know if she would have killed me or not. Probably not. Thing is, at the time, I most likely responded to things based on the belief that my life was in danger. It doesn't MATTER if I assessed the situation accurately. What matters is how I assessed the situation.

I am endeavouring to face the reality that i have nothing in my past to precipitate dissociation

To me, it sounds more like you're trying to CONVINCE yourself that you have nothing in your past to precipitate dissociation. And maybe it would be more accurate to say you can't see anything in your past that could cause it. Maybe even that you can't see it at the moment. Because we rarely are in possession of 100% of the facts of a situation. And maybe you just don't remember it right now.

It seems to me anything that can lead to PTSD can also lead to dissociation. But, am I remembering right, that you've also questioned whether or not you have PTSD?

@stenni , how do you know you aren't dealing with "denial" here? With minimizing? I suppose you could say those are forms of "lying". They are also forms of self defense. And they can serve us well in some situations. Not so well in the long run. But they are a different form of "lying".

 

[joeylittle]

Your stillbirth absolutely may be criterion A, depending on details (which you don't need to go into, but if you'd like more input, would be helpful). Are you leaving anything out? I'm only asking because the phrasing of your reply indicated there may be more events.

 

[Sandstone]

Summarizing, I had recurring high temperatures during pregnancy, went repeatedly to GP, and was told infections don't cross the placenta so baby was OK, despite me saying repeatedly that I knew he wasn't. Eventually went into premature labour, with high fever and dehydration, admitted, put on a drip to stop labour. Contractions reduced, drip turned down, contractions increased again, but disbelieved they had increased. Disbelieved again when I said I needed to wee, stood over by midwife so unable to. ( I think this sums up the event as a trigger not a trauma - trapped, in pain, silenced)
Child still born, with symptoms of Listeria infection - now recognised as a risk in pregnancy, but in the 1980s barely known

ETA, this event has only come into consideration because there is a triple link between it, sexual assault and the difficult, painful coil fitting that precipitated my late onset PTSD

 

[Sandstone]

Or are you asking if there are other things? There are several which I think do scrape into being Crit. A, but all are on the mild end of their spectrums - some non-violent, non-penetrative childhood sexual abuse, something that nowadays might be called grooming, another bewildering sexual assault in a very public place, one particular incident of abuse that could only happen because my mother insisted on me sharing a bed with someone inappropriate, something that might be rape or might be an error.

But in answer to @scout86 , that is how I know there isn't anything else. I can recall clearly each of those events. I have always known they happened. Nothing is hidden from me, and none of them was horrific enough for me to need to "split"

ETA - as soon as there began to be popular language to use about these things, I began to talk about them - back in the 1980s.

 

[scout86]

Or are you asking if there are other things?

That's basically what I was asking, yes.

Nothing is hidden from me, and none of them was horrific enough for me to need to "split"

Unless you have total recall, I'm wondering how you can be SURE there's nothing important you don't recall now. You well might be right, but it's not unusual for people to be unable to remember traumatic events, even when they happened to an adult. And, nothing you remember may seem "horrific" to you now, as an adult. How can you be sure it seemed the same to you at the time it happened? How do we even know where the line IS that's "horrific enough to cause dissociation"?

 

[Tinyflame]

Dear @stenni , I think you are correct in not wanting to potentially open a can of worms without sufficient support.

Sometimes the can opens & we can't help it (my experience). Just my humble experience too that these feelings or agonies have a root, both realities are true, you are not 'crazy' or necessarily dissociative, but well, if there wasn't what there was to deal with, you wouldn't be experiencing such pain.

Minimizing & denial of extent of happenings are usually what we needed to survive & carry on. I found my trouble became when I felt I must carry on as-always, but my mind, heart & soul refused. Perhaps that is also protective, as the first ws protective. (They say it happens when somewhere, you feel more 'safe'.)

:hug:

 

[Suzetig]

Much of the literature around dissociative disorders cite the cause as being prolonged abuse - sexual, physical or emotional. What I hear you saying is that this wasn't the case for you - you have clear recollection of particular events that were traumatic but not repeated or prolonged abuse in childhood and therefore dissociative disorder doesn't "fit"?

I could be the case that you've read yourself into having particular symptoms - it's something I need to be careful of. It's also possible you've unconsciously minimised the effects of your experiences to help you cope and function - not a conscious process at all but something our mind does to protect itself. Or you may have blocked out memories, but I hear you clearly saying that isn't the case. It's also possible that your T is wrong and your not dissociative at all.

What I do see is you trying to get a handle on this and your way of doing that is to use the language of truth and lies which, to me, feels quite blaming. As others have said, it's possible that it might be a case of both being true, eg that your experiences were enough to overwhelm you and cause some degree of dissociation, but you don't have a dissociative disorder as such.

I can tell how much you're struggling with this, I hope you find some degree of peace with it.

 

[Ronin]

are on the mild end of their spectrums - some non-violent, non-penetrative childhood sexual abuse,

With respects, there's nothing like 'non violent' CSA. Children aren't equipped to be handling sexual violence, by simply being children. I'm not on the side of people who'd claim CSA is non-violent, because that's what baby rapists say, & I feel rather strongly about shit baby rapists say, and their victims believe decades later.

(No judgment /on you/ here. Just saying I'd reconsider that maybe your inner critic shouldn't compare traumas against criterionA and instead process just how effing painful the thing was for you, for the time's sake. You can worry about measuring up later.)

 

[joeylittle]

There are several which I think do scrape into being Crit. A, but all are on the mild end of their spectrums - some non-violent, non-penetrative childhood sexual abuse, something that nowadays might be called grooming, another bewildering sexual assault in a very public place, one particular incident of abuse that could only happen because my mother insisted on me sharing a bed with someone inappropriate, something that might be rape or might be an error.

Yes, what @Cashew said. There's no 'lesser' or 'greater' scale on criterion A trauma. If I remove your conditional language, you experienced childhood sexual abuse, sexual assault, and rape. You also had a child who was stillborn. In your description of that event, I can see how the entire medical situation you went through was really screwed up - but I think the trauma you endured was in giving birth to your dead child. It does not sound like you had time to prepare for that, and so it was unexpected death of someone close to you, that you witnessed. (in Crit. A terms).

We dissociate to greater or lesser degrees, in the moment, to cope. Then, when similar stressors pile up or triggers occur, we can dissociate again.

I've been dissociated. I've never lost time consistently. For me, dissociation is appropriately 'filed' as a symptom of my PTSD, not as a separate disorder. It isn't especially larger than my other PTSD symptoms.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are finding that your therapist is pushing some kind of theory of dissociation at you, and you don't think it fits your symptoms.

But given everything you've outlined, you more than certainly meet the criteria for PTSD - so if you are symptomatic for PTSD, and you've been diagnosed for it, that diagnosis is likely accurate. You may dissociate as a symptom of PTSD.

Nothing with mental illness is an either-or, black and white situation. It's not a blood test. All symptoms scale from mild to severe, and disorders overlap. What seems more important is that your therapist is perhaps not listening to you, and instead pushing an agenda at you.

(By the way, structural dissociation is nothing more or less than a way of thinking about dissociation - it's a theory, a set of ideas, not a fact unto itself. So it's useful if the language used rings true for you - and if that language doesn't sound like what you experience, then it's just not useful, plain and simple.)